Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[xyzzy099]

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

If I recall correctly, the 'game' that KnC was supposed to be avoiding was this:  Say you have a Saturn, and want to upgrade it to a Jupiter.  You could complain to KnC that both the boards in your Saturn are underperforming to the point that they deserve a replacement (or are just broken).  They ship you two replacement boards immediately after you send your "security payment".  Then you just keep the boards, thereby bypassing any queue waiting on upgrades (or avoid the total nonexistence of such, as of this writing).

I am not trying to justify KnC's RMA practices - I feel sure they ought to be able to find a way to work around this 'gaming'...  I'm just pointing out what I think the game is that they are trying to avoid.

Then they can request more BTC than these boards are worth. I was willing to send them even 30BTC for an advanced replacement, but they just refused it.

Yes, that was one of the proposed solutions the first time I saw this conversation.  I believe the reasoning was that people might still be glad to pay a premium to jump the queue.  I agree with you though, that it is just ridiculous that they would refuse a (price+30BTC) security for a single board.

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[Paladin69]

So KNC would not accept even Bitcoins as a security in order to send working boards first as to minimize downtime for customers.
From where I am standing it looks like they are trying hard to work against their customers by refusing to come up with a RMA solution that works for both sides.
I can not think of a single reason why they would not accept BTC as a security in order to send working boards first, apart from trying to discourage people from using the RMA service.

This has to do with people trying to "Game" the system.

Maybe they don't want to be liable with your BTC or want to deal with customers saying they never got the BTC back (Lieing to game the system)

RMA has always been, send it back and they send you a new one. This isn't a new concept. While I understand the frustration of potentially losing money while it is RMA'd that is the nature of the beast and their hands are tied.

That's fucking stupid.  Most tech companies have an advanced RMA process to charge a CC temporarily.

Yeah bar, your wrong here. KnC is the first tech company I have dealt with in a while that DOESNT offer an advanced RMA

Never have experienced this. My apologies.

However you believe that when providing "Money Printing Machines" there should be advanced RMA? Sorry blame human nature.

No, I expect when my customers and I spend 10k+ on a machine, regardless of the industry, to have support to go with it. Ive been in the IT industry my entire life, and not even HP's RMA process (one of the worst in the industry) is on the ultra-low level of KnC. Ive never seen a RMA processes handled so poorly in my life. No communication, no flexibility, nothing. I would NOT buy another product from this company, not when they are too busy talking about the next thing to fix their current product. Im surprised paypal has not nuked their account from Orbit.

I expect advanced RMA when dealing with something time sensitive, let alone expensive. My dell's have a 24 hour turn around time, IE I get replacement parts within 24 hours or I get some serious compensation. Especially since KNC only sells to "businesses". You think any real business would put up with this kind of crap from one of its suppliers?

Hell even BFL was kind enough to send out Single boards first for me when I needed an RMA.  I can't believe I am praising BFL over KnC at this point.

[timmmers]

I have to second that.  It took me over a week of playing the game of "answering stupid questions one per day" before I finally managed to get an RMA-number.  Now that I've returned the defective module to them, I've heard nothing - zip - zero for another almost two weeks.

That is why advanced replacement w/ security deposit (CC, bank wire, bitcoin) is the only viable option.  Hopefully if KNC wants to keep playing dumb and pretending it can't be done other comeptitors will see an oppertunity to provide a better service.

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

What is the difference between an order and a RMA?  Simple the first one makes you money.  There is nothing more complicated about a "company ship first" RMA than a "customer ship first RMA" other than securing a deposit to ensure the customer returns the defective unit.

It's a standard back to base warranty.

What your suggesting is a total ball-ache.

You then need to block trace every payment, which become entirely more convoluted and confusing for customer service.

Keep it simple. Ship it, can you fix it?  or is it something more involved? in which case ship a replacement - get it out the door as soon as poss.

If Redacted wants to share his original tracking code, and is happy with us sharing the return code - you'll see for yourself - turn around the same day.

How many RMA's are there? Sounds like a lot if it's so hard to keep track.

If someone sent me a fucked product, then wanted ME to pay to send their shoddy product back to be replaced, then wouldn't act reasonably and speedily send a replacement because I may  be trying to con them in some way..ffs that's not a way to run a business.

It puzzles me how companies like KNC can spout all this commitment to the bitcoin economy, and not see that the bedrock of that economy is the ability for someone to mine the coins economically....and also the future of their business. People won't be back to lose another shitload of money in return for creating the coins to make the system work, funding the dev of the rigs...and being the only ones likely to not make anything.

In a gold rush the guys selling shovels don't break the miners legs with them..they need those guys to come back and buy again.

[-Redacted-]

Can someone verify that the address I was given to return the module to is correct?  
According to a manager at UPS International, this is not a valid address.

KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden

[CYPER]

It puzzles me how companies like KNC can spout all this commitment to the bitcoin economy, and not see that the bedrock of that economy is the ability for someone to mine the coins economically....and also the future of their business. People won't be back to lose another shitload of money in return for creating the coins to make the system work, funding the dev of the rigs...and being the only ones likely to not make anything.

Exactly my thought.
I had friends and relatives asking me about what I am doing and listening with interest when I explain to them what Bitcoin is and wanting to invest a lot of money too, completely trusting me with the decision.
I was going to tell to to buy from KNC eventually. I was...

[rolling]

Can someone verify that the address I was given to return the module to is correct?  
According to a manager at UPS International, this is not a valid address.

KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden

I wrote it as:

KNC
33 Birger Jarlsgatan
Stockholm 11145
Sweden

and they accepted that.  KNC received it and I am getting my replacement tomorrow in the US via UPS.

[CYPER]

Can someone verify that the address I was given to return the module to is correct?  
According to a manager at UPS International, this is not a valid address.

KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden

That is the exact same address I was given too.

[Mogumodz]

KNC was fantastically quick with my RMA. Much quicker than any other RMA's I have had this year.

Sent on a Monday, arrived with them on Tuesday.
They emailed me saying they had got it, and were sending out a replacement that day.
The new board was back with me the next day before lunch.

*Edit*

I used

KnCMiner AB
Birger Jarlsgatan 33 5tr
111 45 Stockholm
Sweden

[-Redacted-]

Wow.  All I can say is...  Wow. 

[bobsag3]

Can someone verify that the address I was given to return the module to is correct?  
According to a manager at UPS International, this is not a valid address.

KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden

That is the exact same address I was given too.

And thats the address I have filled out on both the Waybill, and the Customs forms.

[timmmers]

It puzzles me how companies like KNC can spout all this commitment to the bitcoin economy, and not see that the bedrock of that economy is the ability for someone to mine the coins economically....and also the future of their business. People won't be back to lose another shitload of money in return for creating the coins to make the system work, funding the dev of the rigs...and being the only ones likely to not make anything.

Exactly my thought.
I had friends and relatives asking me about what I am doing and listening with interest when I explain to them what Bitcoin is and wanting to invest a lot of money too, completely trusting me with the decision.
I was going to tell to to buy from KNC eventually. I was...

What a mess that could make of your reputation. Normal people outside of this mad world wouldn't stand for being treat like this as a customer for a machine costing thousands. Just not answering the phone alone would be enough. "We're busy" is not an excuse, that's all about planning workloads and fuck all to do with the customer.

What happened to you was deplorable. Hopefully the exchange rate will compensate you.

[CYPER]

What happened to you was deplorable. Hopefully the exchange rate will compensate you.

That's what I am hoping for too. Yet it will not remove the bad after-taste from missing on a huge percentage of all the Bitcoins I will ever mine, because of poor planning on their part and the obvious and blatant segregation of customers in terms of achieved hashing speeds.
I was even told directly over the phone that my status as a customer was less important compared to those who ordered in June/July, because I didn't help them fund the initial costs. What kind of a company says that to a customer  

[-Redacted-]

Can someone verify that the address I was given to return the module to is correct?  
According to a manager at UPS International, this is not a valid address.

KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden

That is the exact same address I was given too.

And thats the address I have filled out on both the Waybill, and the Customs forms.

Dunno M  - It almost seems like the UPS manager was maybe just trying to find an excuse for their screw up, since other people have shipped there successfully.  Let's just drop it for now, wait and see when the replacement module shows up.  

[FeedbackLoop]

I prefer to think of it as "mostly currency" with properties that make it hold value better in it's money aspect than most FIAT currencies, but I really don't think anyone wants us to debate that here and I'm not that interested in definitions.

Cheers!
 

Fair enough, this probably isn't the place. Right now my time is so limited that I can't pursue this in great detail, but if you'd be interested in debating it some other time and in a new thread, I would be up for that. In reading my original post, it came off as an attack. In reality, I just hadn't had my coffee yet I find a lot of your stated opinions to be similar to mine, and I like your posts. I think it would be an engaging debate.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now, except to say that economics is a rather serious hobby of mine. That is what initially attracted me to bitcoin, it's a novel approach to money. Not exactly fiat, not tangible, but with elements of both. It seems a worthy experiment from many different angles.

It did not come at all like an attack and thanks for the appreciation. I agree 100% with you that it has elements of both and that makes it attractive. That is not something we are coming up now either . I don't think we have much to discuss about it really (not me at least).
 
I am more interested in the consequences of this psychological aspect of mining at the moment actually:

But that's also for  some other thread. I can do it a few weeks from now or you can do it now if you're interested

Also I genuinely meant it when I said I liked your proper gold mining experience. You certainly must have a lot to teach. (another thread )

Btw, for this post not to be a complete off-topic I'll report this now: my unit has now been running without the "dwindledown" for 2 days straight with 0.98 vanilla at ~70 degrees reported (open, no case fans, coolers on which is what seems to work for my machine). ~3.5% HW, ~4 cores off. ~561 GH/s reported by the ckolivas cgminer shipped with 0.98 vanilla. 558 at pool. Using Slush continuously.

Cheers!

[The Avenger]

In a gold rush the guys selling shovels don't break the miners legs with them..they need those guys to come back and buy again.

They don't seem to care. They don't seem to realise that for many, this will be how their whole affair will be remembered:

ORSoC: Amazing

KNC:
Poor/Zero communication
Over promising and under delivering to ~40% of customers
Rude/unfriendly/stroppy customer service
Ignoring customer emails
Inability/unwilling to answer phone during regular office hours
Underprepared and understaffed
Stubborn/rigid RMA policy

[The Avenger]

I was even told directly over the phone that my status as a customer was less important compared to those who ordered in June/July, because I didn't help them fund the initial costs. What kind of a company says that to a customer  

Wow! What a despicable attitude to customers! That really is disgraceful.

[FUKT]

So KNC would not accept even Bitcoins as a security in order to send working boards first as to minimize downtime for customers.
From where I am standing it looks like they are trying hard to work against their customers by refusing to come up with a RMA solution that works for both sides.
I can not think of a single reason why they would not accept BTC as a security in order to send working boards first, apart from trying to discourage people from using the RMA service.

I have been playing email ping pong with them for the last two weeks. Late delivery, faulty units and generic customer service . . . but hey at least they got there in record time.

[ElGabo]

I was even told directly over the phone that my status as a customer was less important compared to those who ordered in June/July, because I didn't help them fund the initial costs. What kind of a company says that to a customer 

Wow! What a despicable attitude to customers! That really is disgraceful.

But guys (i don't know how to say in english but I try, maybe someone can undestand it) look into yourself and a bit use your brain. What he got on the phone is the raw truth.

Back in june we paid a lot of money in 7 days for an unkown company. And the whole story now is only history....

[BtcBling]

I was even told directly over the phone that my status as a customer was less important compared to those who ordered in June/July, because I didn't help them fund the initial costs. What kind of a company says that to a customer 

Wow! What a despicable attitude to customers! That really is disgraceful.

But guys (i don't know how to say in english but I try, maybe someone can undestand it) look into yourself and a bit use your brain. What he got on the phone is the raw truth.

Back in june we paid a lot of money in 7 days for an unkown company. And the whole story now is only history....

So, that's scandinavian professional customer service. But at least they answer some times on the phone... and reply emails... Avalon not

[BtcBling]

Actually my intention was to ask if there are any info about future plans of KNC ... maybe 1TH / 2TH miner, maybe new prices for Jan?