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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3007128 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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November 10, 2013, 04:57:47 PM
 #20561

I assure you 80% is correct.  You may read many reviews of X number of PSUs and you will get a picture that PSUs are most efficient between 50 -70%.  The problem is that these review sites rarely if ever leave the PSU running for 3 or 4 hours.  If you are lucky enough to find a psu review that does test after a long period of time you will see that 80% is the sweet spot on most modern & high quality PSUs. 

If you can send me a link that proves otherwise i would love to read it. 

Nope.  He is right the curve tends to peak around 50% (but it is still foolish to aim for that).  You can check the official curves here.  http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80pluspowersupplies.aspx

Also I think if you recheck those reviews you will find they don't show a peak at 80%.

The point is that the curves today are very flat there is no reason super-duper oversizing a PSU (and pay $100 to $150 more) to gain 1% to 2% higher efficiency.  See post above for more.

Of course the "has to be 50%" myth will never die.  At one time it did make sense because the efficiency at 50% load might be 85% and the efficiency at 80% load was a horrible 68% but those days haven't existed for more than a decade.
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November 10, 2013, 05:01:22 PM
 #20562

I assure you 80% is correct.  You may read many reviews of X number of PSUs and you will get a picture that PSUs are most efficient between 50 -70%.  The problem is that these review sites rarely if ever leave the PSU running for 3 or 4 hours.  If you are lucky enough to find a psu review that does test after a long period of time you will see that 80% is the sweet spot on most modern & high quality PSUs. 

If you can send me a link that proves otherwise i would love to read it. 

Nope.  He is right the curve tends to peak around 50% (but it is still foolish to aim for that).  You can check the official curves here.  http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80pluspowersupplies.aspx

Also I think if you recheck those reviews you will find they don't show a peak at 80%.

The point is that the curves today are very flat there is no reason super-duper oversizing a PSU (and pay $100 to $150 more) to gain 1% to 2% higher efficiency.  See post above for more.

Of course the "has to be 50%" myth will never die.  At one time it did make sense because the efficiency at 50% load might be 85% and the efficiency at 80% load was a horrible 68% but those days haven't existed for more than a decade.

http://www.corsair.com/en/blog/80-plus-platinum-what-does-it-mean-and-what-is-the-benefit-to-me

At least for corsair high end PSUs and other high end PSUs the bets eff spot is still 50%, even if its only 1-2%
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November 10, 2013, 05:06:05 PM
 #20563

butterfly monarch is  better have 600 Ghs is more cheap


knc is litle expensive for the difficulty that we have

cointerra also cheap and more powerfull

Hagaha , do you live in a dreamworld or is this youre first day in bitcoin world.

BFL only produces shit and expensive toasters.
Cointerra, who knows, but they are already way behind schedule. Knc was just a week of with first deliverys and roi has turned out great for me. Btc mined already more then the jupi cost me with the btc price of yesterday before the big drop.

❘|❘ ICONOMI  Fund Management Platform
  LINK TO ICO | LINK TO DISCUSSION
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November 10, 2013, 05:12:25 PM
 #20564

Nope.  He is right the curve tends to peak around 50% (but it is still foolish to aim for that).  You can check the official curves here.  http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80pluspowersupplies.aspx

Also I think if you recheck those reviews you will find they don't show a peak at 80%.

The point is that the curves today are very flat there is no reason super-duper oversizing a PSU (and pay $100 to $150 more) to gain 1% to 2% higher efficiency.  See post above for more.

Of course the "has to be 50%" myth will never die.  At one time it did make sense because the efficiency at 50% load might be 85% and the efficiency at 80% load was a horrible 68% but those days haven't existed for more than a decade.

http://www.corsair.com/en/blog/80-plus-platinum-what-does-it-mean-and-what-is-the-benefit-to-me

At least for corsair high end PSUs and other high end PSUs the bets eff spot is still 50%, even if its only 1-2%
[/quote]

Thanks for agreeing with me.  Did you read what you quoted.   ~Yes 50% is the peak efficiency but it isn't like a 1250W PSU has the same cost as a 850W one.  If choosing an oversized PSU costs you $100 upfront and saves you $5 per year it doesn't make it "super win".  Not saying it is "bad" but it isn't "bad" to aim for something more economical either.   Hint: KNC uses 850W PSUs.  What really matters is lifecycle cost.  Lifetime hardware cost + lifetime energy cost + lifetime cooling cost.   

As a though excercise say KNC sorted their chips and took the highest efficiency ones and packaged them into a "Super Jupiter".  The Super Jupiter would get 2% higher hashrate and use 2% less electricity however it costs 100% more than a "normal Jupiter".  Would you buy one?  Me I probably would just buy two normal Jupiters and get double the hashrate for marginally higher energy cost.
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November 10, 2013, 05:13:34 PM
 #20565

butterfly monarch is  better have 600 Ghs is more cheap


knc is litle expensive for the difficulty that we have

cointerra also cheap and more powerfull

Unicorn powered mining machines might be cheaper and better - only problem is that I can't order one and expect to receive it in 30 days, just the same as the BFL Monarch!

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November 10, 2013, 05:19:09 PM
 #20566

They are liening about sold numbers. They can tell whatever they want.

I have 2.5 THs mining rig Smiley

maybe i dont

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November 10, 2013, 05:20:01 PM
 #20567

butterfly monarch is  better have 600 Ghs is more cheap


knc is litle expensive for the difficulty that we have

cointerra also cheap and more powerfull

Unicorn powered mining machines might be cheaper and better - only problem is that I can't order one and expect to receive it in 30 days, just the same as the BFL Monarch!

Wow HelMax, You sure are "Green" on mining!   If you are eager to waste money, BFL is sure the place to go, they have a proven track record of delivering a year to 8 months late. Good Luck.

PS  Is there a cointerra being delivered I missed?  I thought they were late as well....? 



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November 10, 2013, 05:21:07 PM
 #20568

Nope.  He is right the curve tends to peak around 50% (but it is still foolish to aim for that).  You can check the official curves here.  http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80pluspowersupplies.aspx

Also I think if you recheck those reviews you will find they don't show a peak at 80%.

The point is that the curves today are very flat there is no reason super-duper oversizing a PSU (and pay $100 to $150 more) to gain 1% to 2% higher efficiency.  See post above for more.

Of course the "has to be 50%" myth will never die.  At one time it did make sense because the efficiency at 50% load might be 85% and the efficiency at 80% load was a horrible 68% but those days haven't existed for more than a decade.

http://www.corsair.com/en/blog/80-plus-platinum-what-does-it-mean-and-what-is-the-benefit-to-me

At least for corsair high end PSUs and other high end PSUs the bets eff spot is still 50%, even if its only 1-2%
Quote

Thanks for agreeing with me.  Did you read what you quoted.   ~Yes 50% is the peak efficiency but it isn't like a 1250W PSU has the same cost as a 850W one.  If choosing an oversized PSU costs you $100 upfront and saves you $5 per year it doesn't make it "super win".  Not saying it is "bad" but it isn't "bad" to aim for something more economical either.   Hint: KNC uses 850W PSUs.  What really matters is lifecycle cost.  Lifetime hardware cost + lifetime energy cost + lifetime cooling cost.  

As a though excercise say KNC sorted their chips and took the highest efficiency ones and packaged them into a "Super Jupiter".  The Super Jupiter would get 2% higher hashrate and use 2% less electricity however it costs 100% more than a "normal Jupiter".  Would you buy one?  Me I probably would just buy two normal Jupiters and get double the hashrate for marginally higher energy cost.

Yup.
I just tend towards larger PSUs.. because why pay for a smaller one when you might need a larger one? Its not like you cant use a larger PSU for a smaller project... but you cant go the other direction.
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November 10, 2013, 05:26:54 PM
 #20569

They are liening about sold numbers. They can tell whatever they want.

I have 2.5 THs mining rig Smiley

maybe i dont

1) They have never provided hard sales figures.
2) Why would any ASIC company lie to overstate pre-sales UPWARDS? 

Imagine the CEO of KNC came out today and said "we have already sold 5 PH/s worth of rigs for November and still have another 5 PH/s available"  What do you think that would do to future sales?  What do you think that would do to refunds?  

If anything, all ASIC vendors have been rather coy about how much capacity they have sold because they ALL know the more capacity sold the less they are going to be able to charge for "the next rig".  With delivered units customers can see it in the hashrate but for undelivered units no company wants customers to know the "truth" if the truth means they won't be able to sell more of those rigs they are continually building.

TL/DR: the best conspiracy theories are ones which at least have a glimmer of rational thought.
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November 10, 2013, 05:27:47 PM
 #20570

They are liening about sold numbers. They can tell whatever they want.

I have 2.5 THs mining rig Smiley

maybe i dont

1) They have never provided hard sales figures.
2) Why would any ASIC company lie to overstate pre-sales UPWARDS. 

Imagine the CEO of KNC came out today and said "we have already sold 5 PH/s worth of rigs for November and still have another 5 PH/s available"  What do you think that would do to sales?  What do you think that would do to refunds? 

If anything, all (not just KNC) ASIC vendors have been rather coy about how much capacity they have sold because they ALL know the more capacity sold the less they are going to be able to charge for "the next rig".  Now with delivered units customers can see it in the hashrate but for undelivered units no company wants customers to know the "truth" if the truth means they won't be able to sell more of those rigs they are continually building.

TL/DR: the best conspiracy theories are ones which at least have a glimmer of rational thought.

Occam's Razor- the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. And you sir have the correct one.
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November 10, 2013, 05:33:27 PM
 #20571

They are liening about sold numbers. They can tell whatever they want.

I have 2.5 THs mining rig Smiley

maybe i dont

1) They have never provided hard sales figures.
2) Why would any ASIC company lie to overstate pre-sales UPWARDS? 

Imagine the CEO of KNC came out today and said "we have already sold 5 PH/s worth of rigs for November and still have another 5 PH/s available"  What do you think that would do to future sales?  What do you think that would do to refunds?  

If anything, all ASIC vendors have been rather coy about how much capacity they have sold because they ALL know the more capacity sold the less they are going to be able to charge for "the next rig".  With delivered units customers can see it in the hashrate but for undelivered units no company wants customers to know the "truth" if the truth means they won't be able to sell more of those rigs they are continually building.

TL/DR: the best conspiracy theories are ones which at least have a glimmer of rational thought.



they are collecting money cuz they dont have enough to build miners and shimpmment time is 3 months. Where is logic?!?!?

If you paid for your miner and you are waiting for it what do you think that miner is doing that 3 months. Your miner is Hashing for them obviusly

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November 10, 2013, 05:35:47 PM
 #20572

I assure you 80% is correct.  You may read many reviews of X number of PSUs and you will get a picture that PSUs are most efficient between 50 -70%.  The problem is that these review sites rarely if ever leave the PSU running for 3 or 4 hours.  If you are lucky enough to find a psu review that does test after a long period of time you will see that 80% is the sweet spot on most modern & high quality PSUs. 

If you can send me a link that proves otherwise i would love to read it. 

Nope.  He is right the curve tends to peak around 50% (but it is still foolish to aim for that).  You can check the official curves here.  http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80pluspowersupplies.aspx

Also I think if you recheck those reviews you will find they don't show a peak at 80%.

The point is that the curves today are very flat there is no reason super-duper oversizing a PSU (and pay $100 to $150 more) to gain 1% to 2% higher efficiency.  See post above for more.

Of course the "has to be 50%" myth will never die.  At one time it did make sense because the efficiency at 50% load might be 85% and the efficiency at 80% load was a horrible 68% but those days haven't existed for more than a decade.

Go back and re-read what I wrote.  You seem to suggest I was talking about trusting reviews, which is wasn't.  I said that no review site tests PSUs for any length of time.  They are all reviewed from a cold start, not for the purposes we use a PSU for.  You should understand that energy is lost to heat, and the longer a PSU runs for the greater percentage that is lost, but this is proportional to the usage of the PSU.  80% works out the best over time.  If you don't believe me run you own tests.  

for example, a PSU running at 50% load and 91% eff. may after 5 hours run at 85% eff.   where as PSU running at 80% load may be 90% eff. but after 5 hours this may be 88%.  This is not a real example but what I am trying to get across to you.

Anyway it's my last post on the subject as it's totally off topic, only came here to check November order news.  Of which there seems to be none!

.
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November 10, 2013, 05:38:53 PM
 #20573

I assure you 80% is correct.  You may read many reviews of X number of PSUs and you will get a picture that PSUs are most efficient between 50 -70%.  The problem is that these review sites rarely if ever leave the PSU running for 3 or 4 hours.  If you are lucky enough to find a psu review that does test after a long period of time you will see that 80% is the sweet spot on most modern & high quality PSUs. 

If you can send me a link that proves otherwise i would love to read it. 

Nope.  He is right the curve tends to peak around 50% (but it is still foolish to aim for that).  You can check the official curves here.  http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80pluspowersupplies.aspx

Also I think if you recheck those reviews you will find they don't show a peak at 80%.

The point is that the curves today are very flat there is no reason super-duper oversizing a PSU (and pay $100 to $150 more) to gain 1% to 2% higher efficiency.  See post above for more.

Of course the "has to be 50%" myth will never die.  At one time it did make sense because the efficiency at 50% load might be 85% and the efficiency at 80% load was a horrible 68% but those days haven't existed for more than a decade.

Go back and re-read what I wrote.  You seem to suggest I was talking about trusting reviews, which is wasn't.  I said that no review site tests PSUs for any length of time.  They are all reviewed from a cold start, not for the purposes we use a PSU for.  You should understand that energy is lost to heat, and the longer a PSU runs for the greater percentage that is lost, but this is proportional to the usage of the PSU.  80% works out the best over time.  If you don't believe me run you own tests.  

for example, a PSU running at 50% load and 91% eff. may after 5 hours run at 85% eff.   where as PSU running at 80% load may be 90% eff. but after 5 hours this may be 88%.  This is not a real example but what I am trying to get across to you.

Anyway it's my last post on the subject as it's totally off topic, only came here to check November order news.  Of which there seems to be none!

Im using numbers provided by johnyjuru... well known to test his PSUs to hell and back. and the answer is 50% is most efficient, but barely.
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November 10, 2013, 05:41:22 PM
 #20574

butterfly monarch is  better have 600 Ghs is more cheap


knc is litle expensive for the difficulty that we have

cointerra also cheap and more powerfull

Unicorn powered mining machines might be cheaper and better - only problem is that I can't order one and expect to receive it in 30 days, just the same as the BFL Monarch!

Wow HelMax, You sure are "Green" on mining!   If you are eager to waste money, BFL is sure the place to go, they have a proven track record of delivering a year to 8 months late. Good Luck.

PS  Is there a cointerra being delivered I missed?  I thought they were late as well....? 



to my knowledge theyve just taped-out 2-3 days ago.

if i've helped you, donations welcome: 1BwGnrqSjbfJ39mTNrvb257eUSuUP7Pfxh
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November 10, 2013, 05:46:48 PM
 #20575

Go back and re-read what I wrote.  You seem to suggest I was talking about trusting reviews, which is wasn't.  I said that no review site tests PSUs for any length of time.  They are all reviewed from a cold start, not for the purposes we use a PSU for.  You should understand that energy is lost to heat, and the longer a PSU runs for the greater percentage that is lost, but this is proportional to the usage of the PSU.  80% works out the best over time.  If you don't believe me run you own tests. 

for example, a PSU running at 50% load and 91% eff. may after 5 hours run at 85% eff.   where as PSU running at 80% load may be 90% eff. but after 5 hours this may be 88%.  This is not a real example but what I am trying to get across to you.

At 50% load the PSU will be cooler and thus more efficient so you actually are supporting the reverse conclusion.  However then again the difference is marginal.   BTW JohnyGuru does extended testing in a hot box to control the ambient and simulate actual working conditions.
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November 10, 2013, 05:48:56 PM
 #20576

to my knowledge theyve just taped-out 2-3 days ago.

That is correct and fabrication takes usually 60 days, 45 days is possible for small high cost "rocket runs".  Wafer cutting, testing, and packaging is easily another 10 days.  So count on 55-70 days for chips.

Still Dec/Jan is going to be "interesting".
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November 10, 2013, 06:12:35 PM
 #20577

butterfly monarch is  better have 600 Ghs is more cheap


knc is litle expensive for the difficulty that we have

cointerra also cheap and more powerfull

I'm amazed how this thread can attract so many retarded shills. This guy is praising the Monarch while he previously said no more preorders (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg2388727#msg2388727) and while BFL is one year late on their delivery schedule. Please retard Inaba stop feeding/paying idiots to post on your behalf.

iCEBREAKER is a troll! He and cypherdoc helped HashFast scam 50 Million $ from its customers !
H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
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November 10, 2013, 06:14:39 PM
 #20578

you should look to run the PSU at 80% of its max rating, because thats where they tent to have the highest power efficiency percentage.   Do not buy a 1250w and run it at 600w for example as this will have a lower efficiency.  if your power draw is around 600w get a 750w.  

I highly recommend the XFX 750 Pro (not core edition)
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/750w-xfx-pro-black-edition-p1-750b-befx-full-modular-80-plus-gold-90-eff-eps-12v-sli-crossfire-1x120?utm_source=google+shopping&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CKHc8JzJ2roCFVMbtAodNVgAGw

It is badged XFX but is made by seasonic (who also make corsair) but a lot cheaper.  

Unless you intend to upgrade in the future that is. then go for a bigger PSU.

You are mistaken. Highest efficiency is at 50% load.


I assure you 80% is correct.  You may read many reviews of X number of PSUs and you will get a picture that PSUs are most efficient between 50 -70%.  The problem is that these review sites rarely if ever leave the PSU running for 3 or 4 hours.  If you are lucky enough to find a psu review that does test after a long period of time you will see that 80% is the sweet spot on most modern & high quality PSUs.  

If you can send me a link that proves otherwise i would love to read it.  

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Review_Cat&recatnum=13


At one time the efficiency curve was very "curvy" but those days have been gone for a long time.   Today the efficiency curve is very flat the difference between 50% load and 80% load is usually 1% to 2%. 

So buying a super sized power supply to run it at 50% load would save you a whole 1% * 600W * 24 * 365 / 1000 = 52 kWh.  At $0.10 electrical rate the savings would be a staggering $5.20 a year.  Now if you spend $100 more for this larger "have to run at 50% load because some article in 1998 said that" power supply your break even point is roughly 18 years of continual usage.

There is still big difference in efficiency between makes and models ranging from less than 80% to as high as 93%.
My suggestion to anyone is to buy a good quality PSU that has enough wattage to run the miner at 80% usage = less additional noise and heat from the PSU.
And it is not money down the drain, because these products tend to depreciate very slowly and if you buy a good quality one you can expect to sell it for 80% of its price later when you don't need it.

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ElGabo
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November 10, 2013, 07:13:46 PM
 #20579

For the Psu-s

I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?

I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.

But it's only a theory......

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November 10, 2013, 07:18:28 PM
 #20580

For the Psu-s

I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?

I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.

But it's only a theory......

A 850W quality PSU will most probably be enough even for some overclocking if possible, granted a Jupiter uses less than 600W DC power.

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