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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 126533 times)
LoyceV
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November 23, 2018, 12:02:17 PM
 #5601

Even before the merit source time? I had 1 sMerit airdropped
Yes, like I said: "never" Tongue
It helped that I started with 200 sMerit, and sent only one most of the time.

1558613992
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mOgliE
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November 23, 2018, 03:11:37 PM
 #5602

Might be an unpopular opinion... But I think merit works pretty well.

The goal of merit is just to reduce account farming and spam. To find the real great participants of the forum and make them lvl up in ranks.

Once you're legendary, merit is useless. It's here just for the recognition, but an  account with 1000 merit is the same as one with 1700 merit.

I got about 130 merit to spend and I try to spend it, but honestly people raging about merit system mostly don't deserve any kind of merit points.

My activity:  420
My merit:  101
Date Registered:   September 28, 2017

I want to become a Senior Member the honest way so how can I level up?


You can lvl up by actually making good posts. I looked at your post history and haven't given any merit point simply because all your posts are trashy 2 liners. Start making good posts and you'll earn merit.

coinlocket$
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November 23, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
 #5603

Might be an unpopular opinion... But I think merit works pretty well.

The goal of merit is just to reduce account farming and spam. To find the real great participants of the forum and make them lvl up in ranks.

Once you're legendary, merit is useless. It's here just for the recognition, but an  account with 1000 merit is the same as one with 1700 merit.

I got about 130 merit to spend and I try to spend it, but honestly people raging about merit system mostly don't deserve any kind of merit points.

Agree in part.
Some legendary or hero for the same reason don't deserve their rank, also for my point of view I can't find the difference on the "good post history" from earning 500 or 1000 merits, some users are spamming the meta 24/7 only to fish merits.

BlueMoonLight
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November 23, 2018, 04:38:06 PM
 #5604

Then, nowadays, getting merit without any corruption means MIRACLE. ?
Suppose getting merit from better post could be a natural bitcointalk phenomena and not miracle.

I have some sMerit I want to give away and just went through your post history but I couldn't find any worthy post. Most of your posts are in a spamy megathreads. Seems like it's a miracle to find a merit worthy posts nowadays.

Thank you for your efforts. My pleasure to know that you are looking for someone worthy to received your sMerit.
Pretty sure I am still on the process to learn more. I admit that I am not yet fully grown crypto person.
Anyway give me more time to be like you.  Cheesy Cheesy
iasenko
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November 23, 2018, 09:17:28 PM
 #5605

Thank you for your efforts. My pleasure to know that you are looking for someone worthy to received your sMerit.
Pretty sure I am still on the process to learn more. I admit that I am not yet fully grown crypto person.
Anyway give me more time to be like you.  Cheesy Cheesy

I gave away already all my smerit. Until I get a new refill I'll not gonna check everyone's history like I do it till now. There are already enough (maybe) merit sources distributing, so if you deserve a merit, sure someone will spot you if you don't post in a sunken sections of course. Smiley

lotto-fan
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November 23, 2018, 09:33:44 PM
Merited by PoolMinor (1)
 #5606

I found the new ranking requirement is not logic. It requires way too many merit points in order to gain higher rankings. For example, I am a Member now, and from Member to Full Member:

Requirements:
   Member   60   10
    Full Member   120   100


I need 60 posts and 90 Merit points. How many posts I can get 90 merit points? Well, some posts I just reply to other people's posts, with my comments, for those, I probably get no merit points. I need to post long and original info or thoughts in order to get merit points. Say every 3 posts I get 1 merit point, I'd do 270 activities to get 90 merit points, and this is probably the best scenario, and admin will need to notice every of my good posts  Kiss

Therefore, I think this system is not rational. To the least, the requirement of the activities and merit need to be consistent. The purpose of the merit is to make people write quality posts. So with 3:1 ration this could be reasonable, which means if we keep that Full Member requires 120 activities, then the merit point requirement should be 10+60/3 = 30, instead 100, for the Full Members. This will encourage people to make quality posts and don't find other ways to cheat.

JayJuanGee
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November 23, 2018, 09:44:13 PM
 #5607

I found the new ranking requirement is not logic. It requires way too many merit points in order to gain higher rankings. For example, I am a Member now, and from Member to Full Member:

Requirements:
   Member   60   10
    Full Member   120   100


I need 60 posts and 90 Merit points. How many posts I can get 90 merit points? Well, some posts I just reply to other people's posts, with my comments, for those, I probably get no merit points. I need to post long and original info or thoughts in order to get merit points. Say every 3 posts I get 1 merit point, I'd do 270 activities to get 90 merit points, and this is probably the best scenario, and admin will need to notice every of my good posts  Kiss

Therefore, I think this system is not rational. To the least, the requirement of the activities and merit need to be consistent. The purpose of the merit is to make people write quality posts. So with 3:1 ration this could be reasonable, which means if we keep that Full Member requires 120 activities, then the merit point requirement should be 10+60/3 = 30, instead 100, for the Full Members. This will encourage people to make quality posts and don't find other ways to cheat.

Hey.. you made a pretty decent post, here, but the content seems to be whining about stupid shit (meaning already beaten to death points, if you bothered looking through this thread, for example).  

I would think that if you had made some decent points about something relatively important and significant, then the way that you back up your points, such as here, and describe the situation would likely be more attracting of smerits (at least one, and you might get one here, too.. because sometimes even whiners find common cause with other whiners who happen to have some smerits that they are willing to spend on a common cause whiner).

Anyhow, you can also attempt to study into the matter and see that higher earning merit post members could provide some examples about how you could earn merits, to the extent that merits are important, anyhow for someone who merely wants to read posts.. .. and throw in a few responsive posts from time to time... assuming that there is even any real need to rank up for folks who mostly just read, rather than posting in interactive kinds of ways (which there are a variety of ways that your posts could end up earning merits, if you looked into the matter a bit (rather than just whining some seeming bullshit and seeming non-studied points)).

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
TryNinja
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November 24, 2018, 12:54:14 AM
 #5608

what if others will only buy/ sell merit even though their post is garbage? they should be ban
Selling/buying merit isn't against the rules. But this behavior is extremely discouraged by the members of this forum (for obvious reason), and anyone getting caught doing this will get a negative trust which will make the account useless for bounties/campaigns.

bones261
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November 24, 2018, 01:01:50 AM
 #5609

what if others will only buy/ sell merit even though their post is garbage? they should be ban

If the seller is a merit source, they should be stripped from being a merit source and theymos should reverse merit transactions at his discretion. If it is a regular user selling merit, theymos might reverse any merit transactions at his discretion. (Not quite sure if he will or not.) Furthermore, theymos has made it clear that dt giving red trust to merit sellers is acceptable.

As I've said before, I'm not really worried about it. Especially at those high prices (plus the risk of being red-tagged), it's enough of a barrier that it should still serve its intended function of creating a significant cos[t/barrier for garbage-posters.

BTW, if any merit source goes rogue and sells a ton of merit, then I will probably go through the transaction graph and undo all of the transactions touched by that sold source-merit. Merit ain't no immutable cryptocurrency!


If a DT member tags you for something stupid involving merit (ie. probably anything less than selling merit), then they're not going to be a DT member for much longer.



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tranthidung
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November 24, 2018, 05:29:50 AM
Last edit: November 24, 2018, 05:39:55 AM by tranthidung
 #5610

Those guys are someone who luckily ranked up to higher-ranks in the forum with unintentionally help from old rank requirements, before the start of merit system. They ranked up this way, so it's easily to understand why they have not earned any singly merit around 10 months after the first active day of merit system. I believe that if someday demotion implemented for higher-rank users, most of them will have to fight hopelessly to get at least one more merit (their first own-made merit) to rank up again to their rank before demoted.
Some legendary or hero for the same reason don't deserve their rank, also for my point of view I can't find the difference on the "good post history" from earning 500 or 1000 merits, some users are spamming the meta 24/7 only to fish merits.
I remembered that I occasionally read somewhere that there are higher proportion of higher rank users who don't earn at least only one merit point till now.
I will find and quote it later.

Found it. [Merit Analysis] Users ranked Sr. Member & up that have not earned any merit

It means that 47% Legendary are likely efforlessly Ledgendary, 79.8% adn 73.3% of Senior Members, and Hero are Effortlessly ones, respectively.
Detailed statistics given below.
Rank                       number of users      number of users      
received at least
1 merit

number of users      
with who didn’t
earn any merit

Member27 9184 744 (17%)23 174  (83%)
Full Member18 1813 173 (17,45%)15 008  (82,55%)
Sr. Member9 0161 818 (20,16%)7 198  (79,84%)
Hero Member4 1431 105 (26,67%)3 038  (73,33%)
Legendary2 1451 133 (52,82%)1 012  (47,18%)

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The Pharmacist
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November 24, 2018, 06:15:52 AM
 #5611

I found the new ranking requirement is not logic.
It might be difficult for low-ranked members to rank up now, but I wouldn't say the system isn't "logical".  It is what it is, and it's supposed to be harder for people to rank up now--that's the whole point.  You need patience and need to write good posts, AND write them in sections where they're going to be read, not mega spam threads where nobody ever earns any merits.

Hey.. you made a pretty decent post, here, but the content seems to be whining about stupid shit
Yeah, except for the whining part it wasn't too bad.  Not going to give a merit for it, though.

If the seller is a merit source, they should be stripped from being a merit source and theymos should reverse merit transactions at his discretion. If it is a regular user selling merit, theymos might reverse any merit transactions at his discretion. (Not quite sure if he will or not.) Furthermore, theymos has made it clear that dt giving red trust to merit sellers is acceptable.
I don't think Theymos has reversed any merit grants yet, at least none that I know of.  It's also very hard to prove that merit was sold, even if you find a ring of circle-jerking merit givers.  We all know that there are spam farms that exists and that merit gets passed between friends & family--that shouldn't be happening IMO, but it's hard to prove there was an actual sale unless you have screenshots of conversations or something similar.

S_Therapist
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November 24, 2018, 07:34:53 AM
 #5612

I don't think Theymos has reversed any merit grants yet, at least none that I know of.
It has been done once as per LoyceV although I don't know who was the person, whom he sent merit.
I've only seen theymos undo it once, when a hacked account had send out 3 times 50 merit.

Only @LoyceV can tell who was the persons. AFAIK, LoyceV is using piggy's notification bot. And it will soon redirect him here to share the usernames of the first reverse of merit transaction.

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coinlocket$
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Merit: 1028


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November 24, 2018, 12:10:52 PM
 #5613

Weekly update


DdmrDdmr
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November 24, 2018, 03:04:59 PM
Merited by Foxpup (3), LoyceV (1), S_Therapist (1)
 #5614

<...>I don't think Theymos has reversed any merit grants yet, at least none that I know of.<...>
The one time only (so far) merit reversal was for a case where Elwar apparently has his account hacked for a brief amount of time (fell for the .to phishing site), during which someone sent 3 x 50 sMerit TXs from his account to threads he has never visited. The thread where the case is discussed is this one: Showing I merited 3 people 2 days ago but I never even visited those threads.
Post #25 on the referenced thread is @theymos' answer to the case, and post #29 delimits options of that action extending as a norm.

tranthidung
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November 24, 2018, 03:24:59 PM
 #5615

Findings of the last week is normal, nothing abnormal found.
Because, the total distributed merits over the last week is 4050, which is in the range of 50% previous period weekly merits, with the median found at 4423, and the interquartile range from 3854 to 5487.
I meant for weeks with total merits range from 3.8k to 5.4k, there is no reason to pay attention and dicuss about them, because they obviously have normal distribution of weekly merit.
Weekly update


My topic in which discusses about daily, weekly, and monthly distributed merits is here:
Weekly Analysis:
Updated at 19th Nov. 2018:

Overview plot and trend
General trend has been downward, despite of one spike due to adjustment on rank requirements aims at Junior Member rank.


Mean +/- standard deviation; Median (Interquartile range)


Comparison between last week total merits and median of previous period.
What I found is:
Code:
. di (4050-4423)*100/4423
-8.4331901
Last week total merits (at 4050) is 8.4% lower than median weekly merit of previous period, at 4423.



I will update my topic later days with newest data dump from LoyceV.

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LoyceV
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November 24, 2018, 09:20:08 PM
 #5616

Only @LoyceV can tell who was the persons.
I tried (on mobile), but couldn't find it today.

The thread where the case is discussed is this one: Showing I merited 3 people 2 days ago but I never even visited those threads.
Thanks for answering this Smiley I've seen the suggestion before: it would kinda be good to have a reference thread of theymos' posts related to forum policies. I'd like to make one, but there's no way I can review his 8000+ posts.

I will update my topic later days with newest data dump from LoyceV.
I'll get you this tomorrow.

lotto-fan
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November 24, 2018, 10:12:37 PM
 #5617

I found the new ranking requirement is not logic. It requires way too many merit points in order to gain higher rankings. For example, I am a Member now, and from Member to Full Member:

Requirements:
   Member   60   10
    Full Member   120   100


I need 60 posts and 90 Merit points. How many posts I can get 90 merit points? Well, some posts I just reply to other people's posts, with my comments, for those, I probably get no merit points. I need to post long and original info or thoughts in order to get merit points. Say every 3 posts I get 1 merit point, I'd do 270 activities to get 90 merit points, and this is probably the best scenario, and admin will need to notice every of my good posts  Kiss

Therefore, I think this system is not rational. To the least, the requirement of the activities and merit need to be consistent. The purpose of the merit is to make people write quality posts. So with 3:1 ration this could be reasonable, which means if we keep that Full Member requires 120 activities, then the merit point requirement should be 10+60/3 = 30, instead 100, for the Full Members. This will encourage people to make quality posts and don't find other ways to cheat.

Hey.. you made a pretty decent post, here, but the content seems to be whining about stupid shit (meaning already beaten to death points, if you bothered looking through this thread, for example).  

I would think that if you had made some decent points about something relatively important and significant, then the way that you back up your points, such as here, and describe the situation would likely be more attracting of smerits (at least one, and you might get one here, too.. because sometimes even whiners find common cause with other whiners who happen to have some smerits that they are willing to spend on a common cause whiner).

Anyhow, you can also attempt to study into the matter and see that higher earning merit post members could provide some examples about how you could earn merits, to the extent that merits are important, anyhow for someone who merely wants to read posts.. .. and throw in a few responsive posts from time to time... assuming that there is even any real need to rank up for folks who mostly just read, rather than posting in interactive kinds of ways (which there are a variety of ways that your posts could end up earning merits, if you looked into the matter a bit (rather than just whining some seeming bullshit and seeming non-studied points)).

I went through the posts, just want to raise the issue. I am not whining here, I just hope the system be more reasonable. Afterall, the merit point is not there for fun, it's to encourage people to post better. But with this kind of unreasonable system, it does not achieve its goal. I, as many here, are enthusiast of Bitcoin and blockchain technology. I come here to get information and ideas. Of course I'd like to be as high ranking as possible. But the system as is, I doubt it will help any, at least for myself, I don't care and it does not encourage me to make any better posts.
JayJuanGee
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November 24, 2018, 11:20:42 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4)
 #5618

I found the new ranking requirement is not logic. It requires way too many merit points in order to gain higher rankings. For example, I am a Member now, and from Member to Full Member:

Requirements:
   Member   60   10
    Full Member   120   100


I need 60 posts and 90 Merit points. How many posts I can get 90 merit points? Well, some posts I just reply to other people's posts, with my comments, for those, I probably get no merit points. I need to post long and original info or thoughts in order to get merit points. Say every 3 posts I get 1 merit point, I'd do 270 activities to get 90 merit points, and this is probably the best scenario, and admin will need to notice every of my good posts  Kiss

Therefore, I think this system is not rational. To the least, the requirement of the activities and merit need to be consistent. The purpose of the merit is to make people write quality posts. So with 3:1 ration this could be reasonable, which means if we keep that Full Member requires 120 activities, then the merit point requirement should be 10+60/3 = 30, instead 100, for the Full Members. This will encourage people to make quality posts and don't find other ways to cheat.

Hey.. you made a pretty decent post, here, but the content seems to be whining about stupid shit (meaning already beaten to death points, if you bothered looking through this thread, for example).  

I would think that if you had made some decent points about something relatively important and significant, then the way that you back up your points, such as here, and describe the situation would likely be more attracting of smerits (at least one, and you might get one here, too.. because sometimes even whiners find common cause with other whiners who happen to have some smerits that they are willing to spend on a common cause whiner).

Anyhow, you can also attempt to study into the matter and see that higher earning merit post members could provide some examples about how you could earn merits, to the extent that merits are important, anyhow for someone who merely wants to read posts.. .. and throw in a few responsive posts from time to time... assuming that there is even any real need to rank up for folks who mostly just read, rather than posting in interactive kinds of ways (which there are a variety of ways that your posts could end up earning merits, if you looked into the matter a bit (rather than just whining some seeming bullshit and seeming non-studied points)).

I went through the posts, just want to raise the issue. I am not whining here, I just hope the system be more reasonable.

It could be that I misread your knowledge base and how much you really thought about the subject, and surely if you go through the various posts on the topic or even think through the rationale(s) for the merit system, if you are a reasonable person, you should also be able to recognize that the system was put in place based on reasonable considerations (or at least attempts at reasonableness).

Perhaps there could be better systems or better reasons, but in the end, I would have a difficult time concluding that theymos was not at least attempting to be reasonable about what he implemented and what changes that he made based on goals that he was attempting to achieve (namely largely attempting to disincentivize account farming and spamming/shit posting).

I think that theymos is also open to suggestions that would make this merit system better, but there with any rolling out of any system, there are also going to be attempts to go with what you got and to tweak rather than abandon the already taken direction, unless there is another path that is relatively clear and likely better.


Afterall, the merit point is not there for fun, it's to encourage people to post better.

I largely agree with you, except I would phrase it differently.

I think that it is meant to discourage shitposting, rather than encouraging good posts, even though they seem to be two ends of the same coin... but I don't think that the new system is attempting to cause any burdensome obligations on regular members (even though you might see it that way and even if it ends up becoming more difficult to rank up).


But with this kind of unreasonable system,

Again you are assuming the system to be unreasonable, and I think that is too BIG of an assumption that is not based on facts or logical backing.


it does not achieve its goal.

First, if you have the goal wrong, then you might consider that the new system is not achieving it.

Second, if the goal is to cut down on spamming and farming accounts, I think that there is evidence that the new system might have made some progress in that direction.  I don't feel like I need to provide that evidence, but at least if you are looking at the actual goals, then that would be a step in the right direction (or redirection).


I, as many here, are enthusiast of Bitcoin and blockchain technology. I come here to get information and ideas.

I don't see how this current merit system would be hindering you from getting information and ideas, and if overall there is less spamming and account farming (assuming that to be the case), then it would seem that some of your objectives would be improved.. to get better information and ideas with less clutter?  Perhaps?


Of course I'd like to be as high ranking as possible.

You have not really stated any reason for that?  Of course, all of us like to have recognition and status, but in a forum like this, some people do not have time to spend a lot of time on posting and getting known by other members, so there could be too much of a cost, and perhaps if you are just sharing information and ideas, then I don't see what purpose rank has in that?  Unless you want to sell something or if you want to participatate in a signature campaign or something like that.  You have not asserted those to be either of your goals.  At least not yet.

But the system as is, I doubt it will help any, at least for myself, I don't care and it does not encourage me to make any better posts.

Again, I doubt whether the goals of the system are as you describe, which is to encourage you to make better posts, especially if you are not a previous shit poster or a spammer.  Of course, if you have a goal to rank up, then at least on the margins, the system might create such incentives to get you to post in such a way that will inspire others to merit your posts/contributions.  

Your overall points are not really bad and your way of expressing them are pretty decent, but I still don't arrive at similar kinds of conclusions as you, and I believe that part of the reason for our differing conclusions is that I consider the goals of the merit system to be a bit different from your consideration(s) and it seems to me that theymos (and other admin/mods who are influencing his thinking) is attempting to be reasonable (even if his reasonableness differs from some other members - including you, presumably).

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Kopyleft
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November 25, 2018, 07:49:54 AM
 #5619


First, if you have the goal wrong, then you might consider that the new system is not achieving it.

Second, if the goal is to cut down on spamming and farming accounts, I think that there is evidence that the new system might have made some progress in that direction.  I don't feel like I need to provide that evidence, but at least if you are looking at the actual goals, then that would be a step in the right direction (or redirection).

The most important plus from the updated newbie restrictions, is bringing out the quality content from the former shitposters and spammers, who due to wrong orientation, prioritized quantity over quality.

We now have, lots of self made, member, full members, since the restrictions we're implemented. Contrary to popular opinion that they would return to spamming after achieving the minimum merit requirement needed to wear signatures.

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November 25, 2018, 09:01:27 AM
 #5620

what if others will only buy/ sell merit even though their post is garbage? they should be ban

That is already being done to members abusing the merit system. You should focus on own post quality and thus adding value to the forum. If you have some additional time left, you can also report the misuse of merits if you notice it.

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