Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[devphp]

Raising energy prices would hurt everyone. It's all relative.

Only Bitcoin miners, it would be targeted at them. Governments don't like competition.

Not if it replaces significant parts of the banking system.

Dreams are nice, reality is harsh.

[1714061383]

1714061383

[kehtolo]

I would say you would have a pretty good legal leg to stand on if they raised prices only for one particular industry.

In most countries there is a privatised energy industry -meaning it wouldn't be the governments decision to raise or lower prices.

Also - it would be easier to just ban bitcoin mining in a country, declare it illegal. This would be a better route if you wanted to stop or discourage it, as opposed to charging miners higher electricity costs.

[devphp]

I would say you would have a pretty good legal leg to stand on if they raised prices only for one particular industry.

In most countries there is a privatised energy industry -meaning it wouldn't be the governments decision to raise or lower prices.

Also - it would be easier to just ban bitcoin mining in a country, declare it illegal. This would be a better route if you wanted to stop or discourage it, as opposed to charging miners higher electricity costs.

Legislation is not set in stone, it can be changed in the name of national security, welfare of people, optimized usage of natural resources, etc. you get the idea. Electricity fees are a good attack vector, they are not using it yet, because Bitcoin is still insignificant and doesn't pose a threat yet. When/If it does, all bets are off.

[cypherdoc]

I would say you would have a pretty good legal leg to stand on if they raised prices only for one particular industry.

In most countries there is a privatised energy industry -meaning it wouldn't be the governments decision to raise or lower prices.

Also - it would be easier to just ban bitcoin mining in a country, declare it illegal. This would be a better route if you wanted to stop or discourage it, as opposed to charging miners higher electricity costs.

Legislation is not set in stone, it can be changed in the name of national security, welfare of people, optimized usage of natural resources, etc. you get the idea. Electricity fees are a good attack vector, they are not using it yet, because Bitcoin is still insignificant and doesn't pose a threat yet. When/If it does, all bets are off.

You are so full of FUD.

so which gvt are you talking about? The US? China? Russia? Or all of them together since they all seem to get along so well?

[User705]

Not if it replaces significant parts of the banking system.

Dreams are nice, reality is harsh.

All Bitcoin needs to be is a superior alternative. Personally, I think it is. Time will tell.

Currently the banking sector together with central banks control money almost completely.  How would ceding that control to bitcoin be a superior alternative for them?  It may be a superior alternative for everyone else but it certainly isn't for the banking system.

[devphp]

You are so full of FUD.

I am leaving this thread then. Please stay in your blissful ignorance.

[nexern]

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

It's still not fair. And the ongoing opportunity is not fair, you can only get a few millibits and lose money, while early adopters were each getting fat blocks every day.

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS.  

even if we are talking about a biger timeframe here it seems some of you forgot that as soon the last btc is mined it turns into a kind of a pos system also,
where miners are rewarded just by transaction fees. nxt just jumps directly into this stage.

moreover, you can't be very sure that the btc distribution looks much better than nxt as soon it turns into this level.
just compare the real distribution numbers of both and don't argue that a mass of miners, who getting some pico-btc, are really changing this picture,
it's looking more than an ongoing wealth and mining concentration within btc than a real mass distribution.

it seems dynamic systems always tend to reach pareto, no matter what kind of initial parameters you choose.

added: using this analogy the interesting question is this.
assuming btc reaches this pos like level and also assuming the distribution follows pareto for btc and nxt at this stage.
which one of both will have the better, further mass distribution. btc, with a very high value, concentrated to 100 entities
or nxt with the same entities but much lower value?

as mentioned before, don't be toooo sure...

[valarmg]

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS. 

For PoW coins, there are two ways to get them.

1) You buy mining equipment, spend time and money mining them.
2) You buy the coins on the market.

For PoS stakes there is one way to get them.
1) You buy coins on the market.

In both cases you spend money to gain coins, and in both cases you can make or lose money if the coin goes up or down. Removing the first part of the equation, being able to mine the coins doesn't have much effect unless you happen to have a factory of mining equipment in your backyard.

[klee]

Mining tends to centralisation.

PoS tends to centralisation.

Everything that can be CENTRALISED, will be centralised - the opposite holds true too.

It is a never ending battle - technology is bringing us closer to freedom and enslavement at the same time.

Stop arguing which is more decentralised, fair, anti gvt etc.

The point is our personal stance.

I don't see a problem if 1000 people decide to make exchanges between them based on shit (Proof of Shit), debt, gold or PoW.

Important thing is to decide what kind of power distribution they want.

Technology is a weapon but it can be used by all sides... (just wait to see a gvt based PoW and what ASICS will mine in that case...I would mine them instead of BTC for sure!)

[valarmg]

Well, both PoW and PoS models have that under control.

PoS is in no way comparable to PoW and it's misleading and deceptive to market as such.

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

The problems he mentions are being solved:
http://www.nxtcommunity.org/nxt-whitepaper

PoW has its own problems, like mining centralization. Both PoW and PoS have their advantages and disadvantages.

[jaberwock]

Bitcoin is going down.

Gold is not fallling.

Upside down world.

[manfred]

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.   

[klee]

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.   

In software we tend to 'lock in' (excellent analysis here: http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Not-Gadget-Manifesto/dp/0307389979) but on the other hand first mover advantage is highly overestimated too (netscape, myspace, etc).

It is difficult to know the result because Bitcoin is both asset/currency/commodity/store of value etc AND software.

I guess we will learn sooner or later!

[hdbuck]

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.  

In software we tend to 'lock in' (excellent analysis here: http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Not-Gadget-Manifesto/dp/0307389979) but on the other hand first mover advantage is highly overestimated too (netscape, myspace, etc).

It is difficult to know the result because Bitcoin is both asset/currency/commodity/store of value etc AND software.

I guess we will learn sooner or later!

I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.

[Hunyadi]

I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.

Umm...KNC already has 20nm miners.

[marcus_of_augustus]

I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.

Umm...KNC already has 20nm miners.

good, we should hit that wall any day now then ... and materials, labour and energy costs kick in the hardest

[NewLiberty]

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.  

In software we tend to 'lock in' (excellent analysis here: http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Not-Gadget-Manifesto/dp/0307389979) but on the other hand first mover advantage is highly overestimated too (netscape, myspace, etc).

It is difficult to know the result because Bitcoin is both asset/currency/commodity/store of value etc AND software.

I guess we will learn sooner or later!

I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.

More centralization in the mining.

[HeliKopterBen]

I personally think bitshares x has a better product than nxt with a truly decentralized AND collateralized market.  I believe this achievement is being overlooked because this is the first time in human history that any asset on earth can be traded with actual collateral backing up the trade (btsx) and enforced automatically by an algorithm instead of people.  This is NOT an IOU for an asset, which has been the only option in markets until now.  Also, the DPOS model will be great if it stands the test of time because of the 10s confirmation times. 

Bitcoin and nxt have both been tested with bailouts/qe/inflation with Mt gox and bter repectively and both have passed the test.  The question remains; is work truly required to give a money it's value?  This is more of a socionomic question and a bit harder to predict but I don't think so.  I believe we will see 3 to 5 dominant chains emerge with Bitcoin being the primary POW, or digital gold.  Other chains will provide other uses but their associated currencies will act as money in many cases.  The alternative is for Bitcoin to survive as the sole form of money with open transactions, side chains, or some type of m of n oracle system to provide collateralized markets with Bitcoin being collateral. 

[klee]

I personally think bitshares x has a better product than nxt with a truly decentralized AND collateralized market.  I believe this achievement is being overlooked because this is the first time in human history that any asset on earth can be traded with actual collateral backing up the trade (btsx) and enforced automatically by an algorithm instead of people.  This is NOT an IOU for an asset, which has been the only option in markets until now.  Also, the DPOS model will be great if it stands the test of time because of the 10s confirmation times. 

Bitcoin and nxt have both been tested with bailouts/qe/inflation with Mt gox and bter repectively and both have passed the test.  The question remains; is work truly required to give a money it's value?  This is more of a socionomic question and a bit harder to predict but I don't think so.  I believe we will see 3 to 5 dominant chains emerge with Bitcoin being the primary POW, or digital gold.  Other chains will provide other uses but their associated currencies will act as money in many cases.  The alternative is for Bitcoin to survive as the sole form of money with open transactions, side chains, or some type of m of n oracle system to provide collateralized markets with Bitcoin being collateral. 

I like your thoughts, I will stalk you to see on what are you up to in this forum! 

[FNG]

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bitcoin-gold-or-both-cm391244