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News: BIP91 seems stable: there's probably only slightly increased risk of confirmations disappearing. You should still prepare for Aug 1.
 
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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1940693 times)
marcus_of_augustus
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February 05, 2015, 11:39:17 PM
 #21041


The one thing we know about Satoshi at this point is he wasn't in this to make a fast buck or gain personal glory. He seems to have genuinely been interested in establishing an automated rules based system and then to step out of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years his initial mining coins are still sitting untouched.



it's about sending a message.

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February 06, 2015, 01:11:14 AM
 #21042

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.
2) in concept they are dependent children but even you have illustrated how the family tree can be severed, and with enough economic energy they could grow up and eclipse Bitcoin in value.
3) no evidence to support this false statement, in fact miners don't care about the blockchain size, there only related concern is how fast blocks propagate. Nodes on the other hand may have a legitimate concern but they don't have to be miners and there contribution is born of there own expense and benefits the network as a whole, it is regulated by the Bitcoin Incentive structure there contribution needs to be motivated by the success of the network as a whole.

Blockstream proposed soft fork is wrestling power away form the nodes who govern the protocol into the hands of the miners, and central planers or those who seek to control them.  
 

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Melbustus
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February 06, 2015, 02:15:39 AM
 #21043


The one thing we know about Satoshi at this point is he wasn't in this to make a fast buck or gain personal glory. He seems to have genuinely been interested in establishing an automated rules based system and then to step out of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years his initial mining coins are still sitting untouched.



it's about sending a message.


I would love to see all of satoshi's coins burned to an unspendable output in a single transaction. It'd be an incredible statement. ...though the market would insta dump for a minute or two when BDD shows a spike to ~2,000,000,000. Smiley

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
rocks
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February 06, 2015, 03:17:51 AM
 #21044


The one thing we know about Satoshi at this point is he wasn't in this to make a fast buck or gain personal glory. He seems to have genuinely been interested in establishing an automated rules based system and then to step out of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years his initial mining coins are still sitting untouched.



it's about sending a message.

Are you saying that the Joker was good? Or that we are evil?

Or are you simply saying its time to burn the system down.
brg444
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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February 06, 2015, 03:28:51 AM
 #21045

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Adrian-x
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February 06, 2015, 04:00:22 AM
 #21046

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false
How so?

What mechanism would SC use to secure there chain?

Would transaction fees not be an option?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
majamalu
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February 06, 2015, 04:08:52 AM
 #21047

D&T with a treatise on why the blocksize must be raised: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.0

Hopefully between that and https://bitcoinism.liberty.me/2015/01/21/economic-fallacies-and-the-block-size-limit-part-1-scarcity/ this stupid argument is over.

Great job. Here's the Spanish version: http://elbitcoin.org/bloques-el-tamano-si-importa/

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
Erdogan
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February 06, 2015, 12:59:05 PM
 #21048

Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.







tabnloz
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February 06, 2015, 01:07:51 PM
 #21049

Banks no longer need to make deposits or give loans. They get enough free money from QE. According to the article, if banks have to pay CB's to store deposits (negative rates) then so too will customers of said banks.

“We cannot pay interest on an account and then deposit the money at negative rates in the central bank,” Christian Clausen, chief executive officer of Nordea Bank AB, said in an interview in Stockholm. “It simply won’t fly.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-28/nordea-bank-may-charge-clients-for-deposits-amid-negative-rates

It will be a watershed day when/if this is announced. People have rolled over and accepted so many awful policies, surely this will be a catalyst for a society wide wake up?
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February 06, 2015, 01:13:19 PM
 #21050

The Big Lie: 5.6% Unemployment: http://www.gallup.com/opinion/chairman/181469/big-lie-unemployment.aspx
iCEBREAKER
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Support SEGWIT on 8/1/17 https://github.com/UASF


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February 06, 2015, 01:23:40 PM
 #21051

Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
NewLiberty
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February 06, 2015, 01:52:52 PM
 #21052

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false
How so?

What mechanism would SC use to secure there chain?

Would transaction fees not be an option?

It isn't "absolutely" false, (nor is it universally true) it would depend on the SC.  The SC can do pretty much anything.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
Odalv
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February 06, 2015, 01:56:59 PM
 #21053

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false
How so?

What mechanism would SC use to secure there chain?

Would transaction fees not be an option?

It isn't "absolutely" false, (nor is it universally true) it would depend on the SC.  The SC can do pretty much anything.

We are talking about 2wp SC 1:1 (no new bitcoins can be mined on SC)
Erdogan
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February 06, 2015, 02:14:12 PM
 #21054

Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

Adding that the interest rate in the bond market is not a good indicator, that only shows what the politicians, including the bankers, do. The interesting indicators are the price of long term commodities (oil, iron ore) and the price of and demand for capital assets that are invested (caterpillar tons of machinery (not profit)), surveying businesses in oil and mining, oil rigs and oil rig builders, oil pipes, conveyor belts, that kind of things.

I am afraid that a hard reset is the only way to rebalance at this point.

We don't need to suffer, we have bitcoins.


ssmc2
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February 06, 2015, 02:23:39 PM
 #21055


One of many
NewLiberty
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February 06, 2015, 02:24:45 PM
 #21056

Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

But, aren't those central bankers the smartest people in the world, who have only the general health and happiness of the global population at heart?

Or...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NlXbeB9mNg

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2014/12/19/its-official-elvira-nabiullina-wins-the-tall-pointy-hat-award-for-mismanagement-of-the-ruble/
(When I read articles about gold, I also mentally substitute in Bitcoin.  The larger population will get there eventually.)
Nathan Lewis is Steve Forbes gold guy.  Most Forbes articles on gold come from his pen.  I shared a private dinner with him and Bernard von NotHaus at a Malibu Beach restaurant a couple years back.  We had some lively discussions.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
Erdogan
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February 06, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
 #21057

Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.

Good stuff and makes our current predicament very clear.

But to what end?

Stand With Rand?  Go Galt?
Short everything but the almighty dollar?
Move to Goa and dance on the beach?

But, aren't those central bankers the smartest people in the world, who have only the general health and happiness of the global population at heart?

Or...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NlXbeB9mNg

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2014/12/19/its-official-elvira-nabiullina-wins-the-tall-pointy-hat-award-for-mismanagement-of-the-ruble/
(When I read articles about gold, I also mentally substitute in Bitcoin.  The larger population will get there eventually.)
Nathan Lewis is Steve Forbes gold guy.  Most Forbes articles on gold come from his pen.  I shared a private dinner with him and Bernard von NotHaus at a Malibu Beach restaurant a couple years back.  We had some lively discussions.

If they did what they say they do, they could regulate the market, just like any daytrader. The only difference. A daytrader who consistently loses, will go out of business, but a central bank that consistently loses, just takes a cut from everybody else and continues the loss. That is if they just regulate, which they don't.

They don't take it from the taxes, someone could notice. They instead take it from the money system, fucking it up. The most important asset, part of every trade, money, just fucking it up.
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February 06, 2015, 03:15:45 PM
 #21058

Gold collapsing.  Bitcoin bottoming.
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February 06, 2015, 04:20:58 PM
 #21059

...[Central banksters] instead take it from the money system, fucking it up. The most important asset, part of every trade, money, just fucking it up.

Haha!  And you can't stop us, pathetic Earthling!  You're weak!



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords
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February 06, 2015, 04:24:51 PM
 #21060

...[Central banksters] instead take it from the money system, fucking it up. The most important asset, part of every trade, money, just fucking it up.

Haha!  And you can't stop us, pathetic Earthling!  You're weak!



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords

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