rampalija
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November 10, 2013, 05:33:27 PM |
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They are liening about sold numbers. They can tell whatever they want. I have 2.5 THs mining rig maybe i dont 1) They have never provided hard sales figures. 2) Why would any ASIC company lie to overstate pre-sales UPWARDS? Imagine the CEO of KNC came out today and said "we have already sold 5 PH/s worth of rigs for November and still have another 5 PH/s available" What do you think that would do to future sales? What do you think that would do to refunds? If anything, all ASIC vendors have been rather coy about how much capacity they have sold because they ALL know the more capacity sold the less they are going to be able to charge for "the next rig". With delivered units customers can see it in the hashrate but for undelivered units no company wants customers to know the "truth" if the truth means they won't be able to sell more of those rigs they are continually building. TL/DR: the best conspiracy theories are ones which at least have a glimmer of rational thought. they are collecting money cuz they dont have enough to build miners and shimpmment time is 3 months. Where is logic?!?!? If you paid for your miner and you are waiting for it what do you think that miner is doing that 3 months. Your miner is Hashing for them obviusly
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jonoiv
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November 10, 2013, 05:35:47 PM |
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I assure you 80% is correct. You may read many reviews of X number of PSUs and you will get a picture that PSUs are most efficient between 50 -70%. The problem is that these review sites rarely if ever leave the PSU running for 3 or 4 hours. If you are lucky enough to find a psu review that does test after a long period of time you will see that 80% is the sweet spot on most modern & high quality PSUs.
If you can send me a link that proves otherwise i would love to read it.
Nope. He is right the curve tends to peak around 50% (but it is still foolish to aim for that). You can check the official curves here. http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80pluspowersupplies.aspxAlso I think if you recheck those reviews you will find they don't show a peak at 80%. The point is that the curves today are very flat there is no reason super-duper oversizing a PSU (and pay $100 to $150 more) to gain 1% to 2% higher efficiency. See post above for more. Of course the "has to be 50%" myth will never die. At one time it did make sense because the efficiency at 50% load might be 85% and the efficiency at 80% load was a horrible 68% but those days haven't existed for more than a decade. Go back and re-read what I wrote. You seem to suggest I was talking about trusting reviews, which is wasn't. I said that no review site tests PSUs for any length of time. They are all reviewed from a cold start, not for the purposes we use a PSU for. You should understand that energy is lost to heat, and the longer a PSU runs for the greater percentage that is lost, but this is proportional to the usage of the PSU. 80% works out the best over time. If you don't believe me run you own tests. for example, a PSU running at 50% load and 91% eff. may after 5 hours run at 85% eff. where as PSU running at 80% load may be 90% eff. but after 5 hours this may be 88%. This is not a real example but what I am trying to get across to you. Anyway it's my last post on the subject as it's totally off topic, only came here to check November order news. Of which there seems to be none!
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bobsag3
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November 10, 2013, 05:38:53 PM |
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I assure you 80% is correct. You may read many reviews of X number of PSUs and you will get a picture that PSUs are most efficient between 50 -70%. The problem is that these review sites rarely if ever leave the PSU running for 3 or 4 hours. If you are lucky enough to find a psu review that does test after a long period of time you will see that 80% is the sweet spot on most modern & high quality PSUs.
If you can send me a link that proves otherwise i would love to read it.
Nope. He is right the curve tends to peak around 50% (but it is still foolish to aim for that). You can check the official curves here. http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80pluspowersupplies.aspxAlso I think if you recheck those reviews you will find they don't show a peak at 80%. The point is that the curves today are very flat there is no reason super-duper oversizing a PSU (and pay $100 to $150 more) to gain 1% to 2% higher efficiency. See post above for more. Of course the "has to be 50%" myth will never die. At one time it did make sense because the efficiency at 50% load might be 85% and the efficiency at 80% load was a horrible 68% but those days haven't existed for more than a decade. Go back and re-read what I wrote. You seem to suggest I was talking about trusting reviews, which is wasn't. I said that no review site tests PSUs for any length of time. They are all reviewed from a cold start, not for the purposes we use a PSU for. You should understand that energy is lost to heat, and the longer a PSU runs for the greater percentage that is lost, but this is proportional to the usage of the PSU. 80% works out the best over time. If you don't believe me run you own tests. for example, a PSU running at 50% load and 91% eff. may after 5 hours run at 85% eff. where as PSU running at 80% load may be 90% eff. but after 5 hours this may be 88%. This is not a real example but what I am trying to get across to you. Anyway it's my last post on the subject as it's totally off topic, only came here to check November order news. Of which there seems to be none! Im using numbers provided by johnyjuru... well known to test his PSUs to hell and back. and the answer is 50% is most efficient, but barely.
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waterboi92
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November 10, 2013, 05:41:22 PM |
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butterfly monarch is better have 600 Ghs is more cheap
knc is litle expensive for the difficulty that we have
cointerra also cheap and more powerfull
Unicorn powered mining machines might be cheaper and better - only problem is that I can't order one and expect to receive it in 30 days, just the same as the BFL Monarch! Wow HelMax, You sure are "Green" on mining! If you are eager to waste money, BFL is sure the place to go, they have a proven track record of delivering a year to 8 months late. Good Luck. PS Is there a cointerra being delivered I missed? I thought they were late as well....? to my knowledge theyve just taped-out 2-3 days ago.
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DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis
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November 10, 2013, 05:46:48 PM |
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Go back and re-read what I wrote. You seem to suggest I was talking about trusting reviews, which is wasn't. I said that no review site tests PSUs for any length of time. They are all reviewed from a cold start, not for the purposes we use a PSU for. You should understand that energy is lost to heat, and the longer a PSU runs for the greater percentage that is lost, but this is proportional to the usage of the PSU. 80% works out the best over time. If you don't believe me run you own tests.
for example, a PSU running at 50% load and 91% eff. may after 5 hours run at 85% eff. where as PSU running at 80% load may be 90% eff. but after 5 hours this may be 88%. This is not a real example but what I am trying to get across to you.
At 50% load the PSU will be cooler and thus more efficient so you actually are supporting the reverse conclusion. However then again the difference is marginal. BTW JohnyGuru does extended testing in a hot box to control the ambient and simulate actual working conditions.
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DeathAndTaxes
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November 10, 2013, 05:48:56 PM |
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to my knowledge theyve just taped-out 2-3 days ago.
That is correct and fabrication takes usually 60 days, 45 days is possible for small high cost "rocket runs". Wafer cutting, testing, and packaging is easily another 10 days. So count on 55-70 days for chips. Still Dec/Jan is going to be "interesting".
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RoadStress
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November 10, 2013, 06:12:35 PM |
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butterfly monarch is better have 600 Ghs is more cheap
knc is litle expensive for the difficulty that we have
cointerra also cheap and more powerfull
I'm amazed how this thread can attract so many retarded shills. This guy is praising the Monarch while he previously said no more preorders (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg2388727#msg2388727) and while BFL is one year late on their delivery schedule. Please retard Inaba stop feeding/paying idiots to post on your behalf.
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CYPER
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November 10, 2013, 06:14:39 PM |
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You are mistaken. Highest efficiency is at 50% load. I assure you 80% is correct. You may read many reviews of X number of PSUs and you will get a picture that PSUs are most efficient between 50 -70%. The problem is that these review sites rarely if ever leave the PSU running for 3 or 4 hours. If you are lucky enough to find a psu review that does test after a long period of time you will see that 80% is the sweet spot on most modern & high quality PSUs. If you can send me a link that proves otherwise i would love to read it. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Review_Cat&recatnum=13 At one time the efficiency curve was very "curvy" but those days have been gone for a long time. Today the efficiency curve is very flat the difference between 50% load and 80% load is usually 1% to 2%.
So buying a super sized power supply to run it at 50% load would save you a whole 1% * 600W * 24 * 365 / 1000 = 52 kWh. At $0.10 electrical rate the savings would be a staggering $5.20 a year. Now if you spend $100 more for this larger "have to run at 50% load because some article in 1998 said that" power supply your break even point is roughly 18 years of continual usage.
There is still big difference in efficiency between makes and models ranging from less than 80% to as high as 93%. My suggestion to anyone is to buy a good quality PSU that has enough wattage to run the miner at 80% usage = less additional noise and heat from the PSU. And it is not money down the drain, because these products tend to depreciate very slowly and if you buy a good quality one you can expect to sell it for 80% of its price later when you don't need it.
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ElGabo
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November 10, 2013, 07:13:46 PM |
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For the Psu-s
I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?
I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.
But it's only a theory......
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" I'm waiting for my punishment, I know it's on my way So cut, cut, cut me up and fuck, fuck, fuck me up"
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CYPER
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November 10, 2013, 07:18:28 PM |
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For the Psu-s
I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?
I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.
But it's only a theory......
A 850W quality PSU will most probably be enough even for some overclocking if possible, granted a Jupiter uses less than 600W DC power.
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ElGabo
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November 10, 2013, 07:22:27 PM |
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For the Psu-s
I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?
I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.
But it's only a theory......
A 850W quality PSU will most probably be enough even for some overclocking if possible, granted a Jupiter uses less than 600W DC power. And you'll have a psu at 100% load. Personally I don't like it. (It's my fault)
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" I'm waiting for my punishment, I know it's on my way So cut, cut, cut me up and fuck, fuck, fuck me up"
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CYPER
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November 10, 2013, 07:27:21 PM |
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For the Psu-s
I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?
I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.
But it's only a theory......
A 850W quality PSU will most probably be enough even for some overclocking if possible, granted a Jupiter uses less than 600W DC power. And you'll have a psu at 100% load. Personally I don't like it. (It's my fault) You just assumed that any future overclock will require additional 250W? Maybe If that is the case I can always buy another PSU and use it together with what I have. There is no restrcitions on how many PSU you can use with a single miner as long as it is more than 1 I have 2 Jupiters each on a CM V850, so if any need arises I can just get a 3rd one and use it for both Jupiters. The power requirements are quite flexible.
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davewr2013
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Bitcoin For All
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November 10, 2013, 07:32:41 PM |
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For the Psu-s
I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?
I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.
But it's only a theory......
A 850W quality PSU will most probably be enough even for some overclocking if possible, granted a Jupiter uses less than 600W DC power. And you'll have a psu at 100% load. Personally I don't like it. (It's my fault) For a KNC Jupiter it could well end up drawing 750 Watts (perhaps a bit more) -- I would recommend a 1000 Watt supply as the minimum. It would be better with a 1200 Watt capable supply. (Safety margin) Most engineers like lots of safety margin. In this case the extra cost is cheap insurance. I would also use a UPS capable of 1000 Watts for 20 minutes (or 1000 - 1200VA if you like) -- with full time AC line filtering as well. Most of the 1000 Watt level UPS units have AC filtering -- but look for it in the spec. A lot of places have Solar and Wind turbines contributing the grid -- they cut in and out a lot contributing a lot of electrical noise and over voltage and brown outs -- hence the caution about AC filtering. The power grids are not as stable as they were in pre-green energy days. fwiw... Edit: I actually tested a Saturn with a 450Watt Corsair. The 12 Volt lines dropped to 11.5V With a Corsair GS 800 the 12V lines measure 12.25 volts -- which is fine.
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Give me this day my daily Bitcoin...
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bobsag3
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November 10, 2013, 07:38:08 PM |
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For the Psu-s
I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?
I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.
But it's only a theory......
A 850W quality PSU will most probably be enough even for some overclocking if possible, granted a Jupiter uses less than 600W DC power. And you'll have a psu at 100% load. Personally I don't like it. (It's my fault) For a KNC Jupiter it could well end up drawing 750 Watts (perhaps a bit more) -- I would recommend a 1000 Watt supply as the minimum. It would be better with a 1200 Watt capable supply. (Safety margin) Most engineers like lots of safety margin. In this case the extra cost is cheap insurance. I would also use a UPS capable of 1000 Watts for 20 minutes (or 1000 - 1200VA if you like) -- with full time AC line filtering as well. Most of the 1000 Watt level UPS units have AC filtering -- but look for it in the spec. A lot of places have Solar and Wind turbines contributing the grid -- they cut in and out a lot contributing a lot of electrical noise and over voltage and brown outs -- hence the caution about AC filtering. The power grids are not as stable as they were in pre-green energy days. fwiw... Edit: I actually tested a Saturn with a 450Watt Corsair. The 12 Volt lines dropped to 11.5V With a Corsair GS 800 the 12V lines measure 12.25 volts -- which is fine. Want to chime in the on the UPS- the pair of 900w UPSs I have only can run a jupiter for 7 minutes.
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ElGabo
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November 10, 2013, 07:39:49 PM |
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For the Psu-s
I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?
I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.
But it's only a theory......
A 850W quality PSU will most probably be enough even for some overclocking if possible, granted a Jupiter uses less than 600W DC power. And you'll have a psu at 100% load. Personally I don't like it. (It's my fault) For a KNC Jupiter it could well end up drawing 750 Watts (perhaps a bit more) -- I would recommend a 1000 Watt supply as the minimum. It would be better with a 1200 Watt capable supply. (Safety margin) My first idea was 1200W too... But there was only a little pirce difference between 1200 or 1500W so margin upon margin. Just for sure. (My simple logic: a bit too much is better than a bit less)
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" I'm waiting for my punishment, I know it's on my way So cut, cut, cut me up and fuck, fuck, fuck me up"
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CYPER
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November 10, 2013, 07:42:30 PM |
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For a KNC Jupiter it could well end up drawing 750 Watts (perhaps a bit more) -- I would recommend a 1000 Watt supply as the minimum.
It would be better with a 1200 Watt capable supply. (Safety margin)
Most engineers like lots of safety margin. In this case the extra cost is cheap insurance.
You think KNC engineers have made the wrong recommendations with 850W PSU?
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DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis
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November 10, 2013, 07:45:21 PM Last edit: November 10, 2013, 07:57:32 PM by DeathAndTaxes |
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For the Psu-s
I have a question. If you have a machine what eats about 700w and you have a 850w Psu, what will you do if somhow we can overclock them and need some margin?
I have a 1500w psu and a lot of big fans to answer this.
But it's only a theory......
A 850W quality PSU will most probably be enough even for some overclocking if possible, granted a Jupiter uses less than 600W DC power. And you'll have a psu at 100% load. Personally I don't like it. (It's my fault) PSU are rated on DC load not AC. With efficiency around 90% 850W DC would be like 935W AC at the wall. Nobody anywhere has reported power usage anywhere close to that. You can only push so much power into the unit. The chip can only handle so much current, and even if it could use more the DC regulators have a finite capacity (4 @ 40A ea per board). To push the clocks higher you need more power you don't need 100% to 200% additional power. It is like saying I can push 1,000 into a GPU and make it go faster
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davewr2013
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November 10, 2013, 07:50:49 PM |
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For a KNC Jupiter it could well end up drawing 750 Watts (perhaps a bit more) -- I would recommend a 1000 Watt supply as the minimum.
It would be better with a 1200 Watt capable supply. (Safety margin)
Most engineers like lots of safety margin. In this case the extra cost is cheap insurance.
You think KNC engineers have made the wrong recommendations with 850W PSU? KNC makes this recommendation: What specs do I need for the powersupply? - A power supply (PSU) certified as 80+ Gold (high quality power with low variations). - for Jupiter models, an 850 Watt PSU with a minimum of four separate PCI-E adaptors (6 pins or 6+2 pin). - for Saturn models,a 600 Watt PSU with a minimum of two separate PCI-E adaptors (6 pins or 6+2 pins). - for Mercury models, a 400 Watt PSU with a minimum of one PCI-E adaptor (6 pins or 6+2 pins).However, as some pointed out the new firmware is causing some units to draw more current (power). You pays your money -- you takes your choice. It's your money sunk into those miners -- not mine. I think that some have pointed out their Saturns are running close to 360-380 Watts -- a Jupiter has two more towers. Some of us own voltmeters and know how to use them -- so our opinions may be biased by the readings. Cheers!
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Bitcoinorama
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November 10, 2013, 08:11:07 PM |
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For a KNC Jupiter it could well end up drawing 750 Watts (perhaps a bit more) -- I would recommend a 1000 Watt supply as the minimum.
It would be better with a 1200 Watt capable supply. (Safety margin)
Most engineers like lots of safety margin. In this case the extra cost is cheap insurance.
You think KNC engineers have made the wrong recommendations with 850W PSU? KNC makes this recommendation: What specs do I need for the powersupply? - A power supply (PSU) certified as 80+ Gold (high quality power with low variations). - for Jupiter models, an 850 Watt PSU with a minimum of four separate PCI-E adaptors (6 pins or 6+2 pin). - for Saturn models,a 600 Watt PSU with a minimum of two separate PCI-E adaptors (6 pins or 6+2 pins). - for Mercury models, a 400 Watt PSU with a minimum of one PCI-E adaptor (6 pins or 6+2 pins).However, as some pointed out the new firmware is causing some units to draw more current (power). You pays your money -- you takes your choice. It's your money sunk into those miners -- not mine. I think that some have pointed out their Saturns are running close to 360-380 Watts -- a Jupiter has two more towers. Some of us own voltmeters and know how to use them -- so our opinions may be biased by the readings. Cheers! Yes but the initial firmware was drawing around 550 watts at the wall, so you have an entire 300 watts grace. I've also seen those 850s comfortably pull 1000W recently, though I doubt they do so long term!
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davewr2013
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November 10, 2013, 08:13:16 PM |
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Yes but the initial firmware was drawing around 550 watts at the wall, so you have an entire 300 watts grace. [/quote] Fair enough. What does this version .98.1 cause the unit to draw? Have you measured or are you guessing? That's all I want to know. Edit: Another point -- the large units have more capacity (pun intended) to handle "dropouts" of a part cycle. The more expensive higher capacity units also tend to have better characteristics for filtering out spikes.
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