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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 939857 times)
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sidhujag
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October 10, 2013, 07:37:17 PM
 #1581

Well I did ask him if we work on the code can we come up with a plan to keep it on the exchange? Also stressed the fact that it is a growing coin with more and more vendors and keeping it on the exchange would help it grow a lot easier and faster.

No response yet.

I got a response to my email after I popped in on the chat window and said something along the lines of I hope Devcoin will remain on the exchange because that's the main alt coin I trade, etc.  Not sure if the two events were connected or not.  Just FYI...

What did the response say?

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October 10, 2013, 07:43:52 PM
 #1582

Update the codebase!  Smiley

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October 10, 2013, 07:52:23 PM
 #1583

Maybe some "helicopter view" could help?

There are a few issues (listed in their importance order):
A - [Forever] term: create a real economy in devcoins, with it's own eco-system
(I'm preparing to sell some services for devcoins - services, so I could keep the coins and not sell them asap...)

B - Short term: How can we stop the fall (mcx...) and, if needed, improve/correct/... code
(my previous post...)

C - Long Term: better writings, more earnings (from those...), and more writers also
(I really think that lowering rewards could weed out ... well ... undesirables at least)

As You could see, there is the same dilemma between urgency and importance...
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October 10, 2013, 07:55:29 PM
 #1584

I think we are on the same page, and I know some others are too including MarkM... its not like your not being heard. I think the top priority right now is keeping it on the exchange and then finding out what to do with bounties/writing payments etc.
The last I read on the issue was a reference to the developer who worked on the updates to (I think) i0coin perhaps doing the same for devcoin. The problem was - to keep going full circle - the lack of available incentive to get it done. However, although I'm not able to appraise the required effort/knowledge needed I will contribute 1 million dvc (escrow is fine) if anybody is able to contact them and make it happen - because it doesn't look like the power of positive thought will be enough...
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October 10, 2013, 08:23:44 PM
 #1585

(I really think that lowering rewards could weed out ... well ... undesirables at least).

This couldn't be more wrong. If it were right, jobs wouldn't pay better workers more money. They would pay less.

The lower the payments become, the more lower-quality workers stay and the more higher-quality workers will leave.

Really, there should be a way to determine quality of writers. There are many sites that hire freelancers that base their pay on your own skills (in that the higher-quality writers will always earn more, even for the same amount of work, because they have more knowledge of writing and are much more well-spoken).

The big issue with writer payments I've seen is that everyone is paid the same. It doesn't matter how good or bad your writing is, whether it's a well-researched article or not, etc. Putting people on that same level just leads to issues. If one person spends 3 hours researching their article before writing it, and another spends 20 minutes total on theirs, and they get paid the same, there is no real incentive for the former; they are essentially working more for less.


 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




















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October 10, 2013, 08:44:32 PM
 #1586

(I really think that lowering rewards could weed out ... well ... undesirables at least).

This couldn't be more wrong. If it were right, jobs wouldn't pay better workers more money. They would pay less.

The lower the payments become, the more lower-quality workers stay and the more higher-quality workers will leave.

Really, there should be a way to determine quality of writers. There are many sites that hire freelancers that base their pay on your own skills (in that the higher-quality writers will always earn more, even for the same amount of work, because they have more knowledge of writing and are much more well-spoken).

The big issue with writer payments I've seen is that everyone is paid the same. It doesn't matter how good or bad your writing is, whether it's a well-researched article or not, etc. Putting people on that same level just leads to issues. If one person spends 3 hours researching their article before writing it, and another spends 20 minutes total on theirs, and they get paid the same, there is no real incentive for the former; they are essentially working more for less.
this is very much a big part of the problem, i think. but can anyone envision a system -- a FAIR system -- that rewards better writers? i see that payouts differ based on page views/ad revenue already, but that does not do anything about the quality of writing. either writing standards should be raised (unlikely to work in practice), or the base level reward should be lowered, with opportunity for writers of high quality work to receive higher than base-level rewards.

the latter is ideal, but the problem is, how do we go about this fairly? in many organizations, this type of incentive system that we are talking about is very much at risk of falling to favoritism/nepotism. how do we keep it from becoming a system where top admins reward themselves and their friends, while leaving high quality -- possibly better -- writers in the dust?

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October 10, 2013, 08:51:55 PM
 #1587

(I really think that lowering rewards could weed out ... well ... undesirables at least).
This couldn't be more wrong. If it were right, jobs wouldn't pay better workers more money. They would pay less.
...
Sorry, I was too pithy/brief. The strategy should be more complex than that:
repeat (better writings >> more money) until loads of money >> more writers >> merit payment ... etc
Until then, writing by passion should do it...
Anyway, I thought it's not here the place (DevTome thread?) and the time (let's first put out the fire...) to debate the payment system.

How many coders could aggregate under some (unknown for now) project leader, and where is a ro(o)ster?
(a joke, in my culture the rooster is the leader... a vocal one)



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October 10, 2013, 08:54:27 PM
 #1588

I think we are on the same page, and I know some others are too including MarkM... its not like your not being heard. I think the top priority right now is keeping it on the exchange and then finding out what to do with bounties/writing payments etc.
The last I read on the issue was a reference to the developer who worked on the updates to (I think) i0coin perhaps doing the same for devcoin. The problem was - to keep going full circle - the lack of available incentive to get it done. However, although I'm not able to appraise the required effort/knowledge needed I will contribute 1 million dvc (escrow is fine) if anybody is able to contact them and make it happen - because it doesn't look like the power of positive thought will be enough...

1 million from me too to whoever fixes it.

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October 10, 2013, 08:57:14 PM
 #1589

STOP!

Every time the bigger-picture issue of devtome vs all else comes up it moves onto the question of relative intra-devtome payments. This is an issue but it is not the same issue (how devtome shares are divvied up can be resolved whatever the starting sum or % is).
---------

Ok this is selfish but I'd really appreciate, and I think devcoin would benefit from, at least a few more posts of some other people's views aside those so far on that greater question of devcoin and devtome's worth within it - in the context of everything else required and potential - i.e. in relative terms. If most others think the status quo is fine then I can shut up and move on, otherwise share your view.

Unthinkingbit - is the current setup here to stay or do you have other ideas/suggestions?

Edit: sidhujag, didn't see your message before I posted that - nice one.
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October 10, 2013, 08:57:53 PM
 #1590

I honestly think lowering the word count is the best way to do it.

You can still write as much as you want, it will just carry into the next round. And with everyone getting less shares, the shares are worth more and people who don't write earn more.

But also,
If we tried to get everyone that is mad about writer over earnings, to just start writing on Devtome. Then the only issue they would have is that too many people are writing and shares are getting too small. It's still an issue, but it's a better one.
The issue is only the max payout per person per round (or in my opinion, max payout for devtome as a whole as a % of total per round to then be divided up however everybody wants to). There doesn't have to be any limit to word count/submission volume in itself at all, so as viewer popularity/advertising income grows that should catalyse payment for those interested rather than via specific devtome payment.

That could work too. As long as if when you write more than the max payout, the words you didn't get paid for can carry over. And Advertising does need to boost for sure.

If everyone is thinking outside the box, there is a new box.
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October 10, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
 #1591

STOP!

Every time the bigger-picture issue of devtome vs all else comes up it moves onto the question of relative intra-devtome payments. This is an issue but it is not the same issue (how devtome shares are divvied up can be resolved whatever the starting sum or % is).
---------

Ok this is selfish but I'd really appreciate, and I think devcoin would benefit from, at least a few more posts of some other people's views aside those so far on that greater question of devcoin and devtome's worth within it - in the context of everything else required and potential - i.e. in relative terms. If most others think the status quo is fine then I can shut up and move on, otherwise share your view.

Unthinkingbit - is the current setup here to stay or do you have other ideas/suggestions?

Edit: sidhujag, didn't see your message before I posted that - nice one.

i am just exploring devcoin and don't use devtome. it occurs to me that devtome is actually pretty important in the scheme of the devcoin "economy" considering the state of the economy. it seems to be the only venue of its kind. if devcoin supporters want to fund open-source creations and art, there dont seem to be other venues where people can put that into motion. hence, the importance of devtome. if the total sum of work we are talking about is 1) coding projects and 2) writing, then that is the state of things.

if there was a deviantart for devcoins, i could add a whole lot... photography, animation, visual art, music. i am not much of a writer, though. what kind of bounty would it take for someone to build a deviantart for devcoins (but for music, too) -- with forum for interaction with artists and a shop to buy art/tracks with devcoins?  Tongue
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October 10, 2013, 09:38:55 PM
 #1592

i am just exploring devcoin and don't use devtome. it occurs to me that devtome is actually pretty important in the scheme of the devcoin "economy" considering the state of the economy. it seems to be the only venue of its kind. if devcoin supporters want to fund open-source creations and art, there dont seem to be other venues where people can put that into motion. hence, the importance of devtome. if the total sum of work we are talking about is 1) coding projects and 2) writing, then that is the state of things.

if there was a deviantart for devcoins, i could add a whole lot... photography, animation, visual art, music. i am not much of a writer, though. what kind of bounty would it take for someone to build a deviantart for devcoins (but for music, too) -- with forum for interaction with artists and a shop to buy art/tracks with devcoins?  Tongue
Fair points, cheers for the opinions. Devtome - yes I agree important. A more visual-arts focused repository - I don’t know what it would take, but that’s the sort of thing I’m referring to; making greater bounties/resources available for other things.

As I understand it there are several things/improvements in the works, including:

Website
Devtome
Code updates/patches
Ecommerce sites including some here: https://coinpayments.net/index.php?cmd=directory - if I've missed some nothing personal and feel free to remind everybody including me,
Exchange/trading developments
Devcoin intro video
Gaming/interactive platforms
Other open-source software projects (including those outlined by icoin/devda.ch)
All the efforts on maintaining files/servers
All the efforts on open transactions/origin Bitcoin code etc etc.

For some context, Devtome writing receives approx 75% a round of total DVC of late (and of the remainder most is admin/maintenance/files). That’s all I don’t understand, not Devcoin per se. And to be fair, some projects (like a video) are accounted for via bounties on completion - although I'd still argue that when such a large % is likely to be already alloted that creates a barrier for such ventures as even a big chunk when the pie is smaller may be off-putting. I'm not saying I'm right about any/everything, just that I'd like to know where I'm wrong.

stan: no I'd never heard of it
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October 10, 2013, 09:43:41 PM
 #1593

is there a thread for active dvc bounties? this subforum is such an eyesore, a cursory glance didn't turn anything up. it seems to me that much of the issue surrounding devtome would be greatly mitigated by some of the other projects (mentioned above) coming together. what sort of incentives is the devcoin community providing to see that these projects happen? how can we improve on that?  Smiley
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October 10, 2013, 09:51:28 PM
 #1594

Weisoq, I don't think you understand where I'm coming from here.  I am not, nor will I ever be a Devcoin coder, developer, or activist.  I am perhaps an early adopter, but other than that, nothing special or remarkable for the Devcoin project.

I am a regular person who saw a banner ad saying I could earn Devcoins by writing for the Devtome, so I applied for the position and got accepted.  I have found this position to be beneficial and I'm happy to keep working in this way as long as it's mutually beneficial to me and the client, which in this case is the Devcoin project, specifically the Devtome.

There's been a lot of chatter here about whether or not the way writers are paid is truly mutually beneficial, but so far the client keeps paying and the client has not given any indication of the terms of pay changing.  If or when that happens, then I have to make a decision as to whether or not it's still beneficial to me to continue.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really care about all the other stuff.  Not only that, I'm not qualified to care because I lack adequate technical knowledge.  That's not to say I don't find it interesting or worthy of being cared about.  It's just that my involvement with the Devcoin project is as an economic unit--someone who finds having Devcoins to be economically beneficial.  The opportunity to earn them was offered and I took it.  Having earned Devcoins for a while now, I do find it to be in my best interest to contribute in some way to making Devcoin a viable currency, and I'm working on what is possible given my own capabilities.  That doesn't mean that I am qualified to make decisions or even offer opinions about the fundamentals of the project, especially the coding and high tech and gaming stuff.  I know nothing about these things and that kind of knowledge was not a condition for me getting involved.  If my vote is ever asked for I will do my best to vote in an informed manner, but so far my vote has not been asked for in any formal sense.  And I've never been given the impression that airing my opinions here counted as voting.

So given that I was never told I needed to be a computer programmer or understand how 3-D printing or high level interactive gaming works in order to join as a writer, then why is it that every single time there is some sort of problem with Devcoins, including technical coding issues, people think it's cool to dump on the writers--as if any of this were somehow our fault, or that jumping on an opportunity because it benefited us and sticking with it for the samw reason is somehow a crime against the viability of the Devcoin project?  I am not gaming the system or being passive aggressive by deferring to the decision makers of the project; I am being honest.  I am an adopter of Devcoin, and I would like to leave it at that.  While I don't know much about programming, I do know a little something about what makes a currency viable.  One thing I do know is that you need plain ordinary adopters, and lots of them, if you want your currency to get off the ground.  Well, we're here, and I at least would like to stay.  But I'm getting a bit annoyed with getting put into the scapegoat role--that was definitely not mentioned in the banner ad.  It's also not a very good way to welcome future Devcoin adopters.



You're going to have to convince the decision makers on that one.  That's all I'm trying to say.  You can write an article about why things should change, how they should change, and why it's ridiculous to keep things the way they are.  Then you should send a link to your article to the decision makers of the Devcoin project.  But you might as well get paid for it in the mean time.

Personally, the biggest issue I see with Devcoins is that there lacks an economy for them.  However, I see that changing as more people are opening up businesses which accept Devcoins in payment.  Some of those businesses have been opened up by Devtome writers.  I'm working on a venture myself.  I guess I don't see the problem.  It seems to be working the way it should be working using the current payout system.  It's just going to take some time.

Having Devcoin kicked off mcxNOW would be annoying, to be sure.  But it's not going to kill Devcoin (I suspect it will have more negative ramifications for mcxNOW than it will for Devcoin).  If there is a genuine problem with the DVC code, then it's a good idea to fix it.  But honestly, RealSolid is the first person I've encountered who ever found that to be an issue.  My wallet and the Devcoins inside it work just fine, and I have a much easier time sending DVCs around than I've lately had sending Bitcoins around from certain addresses.
Yeah perhaps I could write it in my own blog, then copy that again over to devtome for some extra while hoping mcxnow dvc flow remains adequately liquid before code problems put paid to an exchange option? Yes I know that's an arbitrary cheap shot but it serves to make a point. No I don't blame you for such a dynamic existing, and no I'm not going to write an article about it.

Does not offering any opinion on the relative value of projects imply you think devtome is the most important, or that it just works too well for you to suggest otherwise?

We have a fundamental difference of opinion on all this. Devcoin et al are supposed to be progressively more de-centralised payment systems, not a self congratulatory word bucket for verbose special flowers to pay ourselves. Under that assumption, a deferral to any powers-that-be strikes me as a complete kop out, or just evidence of gaming. Which is fine, but then don't fall back on concerns over devcoin - as such an outlook is part of the problem for those who think otherwise of the potential.

-----------
To be totally clear, I'm not anti-devtome or writers or writing, I just cannot understand the benefit of having a payment mechanism that enables one apparently-initial project to cannablise the potential and opportunities of everything else. But I keep making this point to little agreement or consensus and I'm bored of doing so.

mrca: I happen to think devtome submission should be for nothing - perhaps a notional amount for time spent editing etc aside - and any earnings based on views/advertising. i.e. catalysing self-funding/failure due to no interest, rather than subsidised by everything else.

And for those who may think that as someone who's earnt dvc for writing I'm talking out of my arse - if the system was changed to (for example, devtome as 5-10% max of total) I would be quite happy to contribute towards any feeling-hard-done-by-although-it-makes-no-sense-to-continue-like-this compensation pot, although I believe the price itself would resolve those concerns anyway.

I think we are on the same page, and I know some others are too including MarkM... its not like your not being heard. I think the top priority right now is keeping it on the exchange and then finding out what to do with bounties/writing payments etc.

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October 10, 2013, 11:15:06 PM
 #1595

is there a thread for active dvc bounties? this subforum is such an eyesore, a cursory glance didn't turn anything up. it seems to me that much of the issue surrounding devtome would be greatly mitigated by some of the other projects (mentioned above) coming together. what sort of incentives is the devcoin community providing to see that these projects happen? how can we improve on that?  Smiley

I really think there should be, I know there is a thread about possible bounties.

If everyone is thinking outside the box, there is a new box.
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October 10, 2013, 11:22:53 PM
 #1596

We have a rating system, I believe.  We could use that.

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October 10, 2013, 11:26:06 PM
 #1597

Weisoq, I don't think you understand where I'm coming from here/..
I’m not a Devcoin coder, developer or activist either. I first arrived at this site and devtome a couple of months before you did. However we're both able to form intelligent, informed conclusions about the pros/cons of several basic aspects of supply and demand.

Your general points - as I think I’ve made clear I’m not apportioning any blame on you or anyone else in particular, only onto the system. I highlighted some element of a process for you only because it made a point and I was replying to you. That ‘writers’ broadly are being scapegoated is because that is what is indeed to blame - 75% + related shares of dvc go to devtome writers.

I’m annoyed at the general apathy and shrugging by those accruing most monetary benefit from the system, to the cost of everybody else. That mostly seems to be devtome writers - if it was something else I would direct my frustrations elsewhere. You're correct in your implications that I could instead just direct all my grumbling at Unthinkingbit but I guess I hoped all those involved would have an interest in finding a better way forward - and I suspect or at least assumed he may think similarly - if he doesn't then I guess he knows my view by now. I have made a point of not getting personal at all with anybody with regards to writings/particular efforts, although I’ve spent a lot of time on devtome so of course I have views, but that is not the point to me - there's nothing fundamentally wrong with devtome only in how it impacts upon the wider Devcoin project.

You refer to mutuality as if it’s something you’ve considered and concluded upon as balanced - I just don’t see where such benefits exist. What ‘value’ do I add to Devcoin in posting writings on devtome? There’s value is somebody reads it as original, enjoys it, shares it, buys or spreads the word about Devcoin equivalent to that earned from it. Otherwise it’s a one-way trade or a skewed trade.

So what also annoys me is when those benefiting from a skewed incentive structure then pronounce the mutual benefit to the concept of the status-quo, a continuation. For every share that say I earn, that diminishes somebody else’s reward. That’s just the way it works - and that's fine but in my opinion that needs to be accounted for by being able to justify greater relative value. I can't see how/where that's even been considered.

The issue I think you miss is that it’s not really the ‘client’ paying you - it’s me, him, her and everybody else that has, could have or will have Devcoins. You are one of the decsion-makers because you have the ability to offer opinion, act and transact to the benefit or detriment of devcoin. Electing to hide behind the defence of a particular professional artist-client relationship while in full knowledge of the costs to a viable continuity of such a relationship is I think slightly disingenuous, and from what I’ve read and heard of your opinion not in line with your general outlook.

However, regardless of my view it is only my view and not necessarily that of others. Like you I also have to make a decision as to whether or not it's still beneficial to me to continue, so thanks for sticking your head above the parapet and building on the discussion.
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October 10, 2013, 11:50:16 PM
 #1598

http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=where_to_spend_your_devcoins

All the current devcoin businesses.  If I forgot something, please tell me!

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October 11, 2013, 12:24:01 AM
 #1599

Devtome now has ratings! If you're a devcoin admin, or are a developer on the bitcoin share list or the devcoin share list, please sign up to rate writers by adding yourself to the rater list:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#raters

Raters will get to vote in this round, round 28. It will take several days for raters to sign up, get their forms and rate, which will go over the cutoff day for this round, but these ratings will still be in the round 28 group. Once I have the votes, I'll update the devtome script for rounds 29 and after to take the ratings into account, with equal weighting to popularity.

Raters get three shares for voting and up to two extra shares for comments, for a maximum of five shares. Comments get 0.4 shares each, rounded down, to a maximum of 2 shares. Assuming a typical share value of 15$, and an average of four shares, that works out to 60 $/page. A rating page has up to twelve writers to rate, most of the time it will be twelve. Alyssa reported that filling out the form with a few comments took 45 minutes. The typical hourly rate is 60 $/page / 45 minutes/page * 60 minutes/hour = 80 $/hour.

The rate is very high to give the raters extra reason to reject bribes.

Because the rate is so high, rating is a perk. This perk is offered only to the people who help the community a lot, devcoin admins and open source developers.

More info is on the rater page:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater

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October 11, 2013, 12:40:06 AM
 #1600

I could offer my opinions all I want, but there isn't really a process that I'm aware of where my opinion could go from me spouting off to an actual change in the way the Devcoin project works.  All I can think of right now is that if someone has a concern about how the payment system is structured, he should express that concern to UnthinkingBit, because so far, he's the only one I know of (and please inform me of other genuine decision makers that I may be missing) who has the authority to make any sort of change to any aspect of the Devcoin project.

With that said, my opinion is that UnthinkingBit should proceed with what is truly going to be most beneficial to the Devcoin project as a whole, even if that means that in the short term I won't get paid as well as a writer.  Once such a decision is made, then I reevaluate my contribution and see if I continue as a writer.  If I choose not to, it's no hard feelings or anything, just moving on.

I can't be any more specific than that because of the gap in my technical knowledge which I mentioned before.

As for my opinion on the proportion of payment writers get, it really depends on what the actual goal of the Devtome is.  If the point is to get Devcoins into as many hands as possible, as in bring them into wider circulation, then I think that system is brilliant.  There's a relatively easy, straightforward way for fairly intelligent but otherwise ordinary people to get lots of Devcoins in their wallets.  The fact that it favors good writers (and the type of writers who most benefit are those who write consistently and prolifically), means that the writers will likely write about Devcoins not just on the Devtome but wherever else they might be writing.  Pair a good writer with a good marketer and you will get the word out.  If the goal is to develop all these cool techie things, then obviously you'd want to make it a sweet deal for the programmers and developers of those things.

Come to think of it, the bounty issue could be solved very easily in any number of ways, one of them being that for certain techie projects that are considered paramount (such as fixing the code to keep DVC on mcxNOW, assuming that will satisfy RS), the bounty isn't a certain number of shares but a percentage of the total pool, or just a plain amount, for example, 10% of generated shares or 18,000,000 DVC, sort of a flip side of limiting the Devtome pool to a certain percentage.

One thing that I would propose is that for those who are interested, one or more proven writers can be "assigned" to each techie project.  I'm not the first to notice that often programmers suffer from an inability to communicate the significance of what they are doing to average nontechnical people such as myself.  Put a writer on that project and give that writer access to the programmers for interviewing, and set up some way that they both benefit from the ensuing article.  Make it worth the programmer's while because I'm sure it will try his patience to have to break it down into baby steps for the writer (probably more than once!), and make it worth the writer's while for having to take the extra step of interviewing the programmer and then putting all the information into a nice engaging story.  There are probably a number of approaches that can be taken for compensation.

I think that one of the issues going on is a huge disconnect between the writers who are nontechnical and just coming on board and the programmers who have been doing cool stuff for a while.  The word about the importance of what the programmers are doing is not getting out because the programmers aren't describing it in plain English.  The writers don't write about these projects because they don't know the first thing about them.  Put the two together and you will have some decent promotional material about each project which can then be widely disseminated to the benefit of writer, programmer, and project.

It's really a matter of prioritizing and then incentivizing what is determined to be the priority.  I'm totally cool with bouncing around ideas like this.  I just don't think it's fair to take out one's frustrations with not liking the current system onto the people who are taking advantage of it.  It's not a crime to make the most of a situation that benefits you, even if that system is for the time being majorly rigged in your favor.  I will definitely continue to make the most of the current system and yes I will be the first to say it's been my lucky break.  But I'm not particularly attached to it going on like this forever, and if/when it changes I'll either adapt or move on, and I'll be better off economically for it as long as I can steer clear of the scams.

Although I personally do tend towards altruism, I believe that an economic system that depends on altruism will not in the long run be sustainable.  For it to work in the long run, it has to work just fine when the majority of the participants are for the most part looking out for their own interests.  I'm not talking about survival of the fittest or dog eat dog, just people going along trying to better their lives and doing what's best for them while still being generally ethical.  The reality is that this is how most people operate, so you want your currency to work for them and still accomplish the overall goals.

Weisoq, I don't think you understand where I'm coming from here/..
I’m not a Devcoin coder, developer or activist either. I first arrived at this site and devtome a couple of months before you did. However we're both able to form intelligent, informed conclusions about the pros/cons of several basic aspects of supply and demand.

Your general points - as I think I’ve made clear I’m not apportioning any blame on you or anyone else in particular, only onto the system. I highlighted some element of a process for you only because it made a point and I was replying to you. That ‘writers’ broadly are being scapegoated is because that is what is indeed to blame - 75% + related shares of dvc go to devtome writers.

I’m annoyed at the general apathy and shrugging by those accruing most monetary benefit from the system, to the cost of everybody else. That mostly seems to be devtome writers - if it was something else I would direct my frustrations elsewhere. You're correct in your implications that I could instead just direct all my grumbling at Unthinkingbit but I guess I hoped all those involved would have an interest in finding a better way forward - and I suspect or at least assumed he may think similarly - if he doesn't then I guess he knows my view by now. I have made a point of not getting personal at all with anybody with regards to writings/particular efforts, although I’ve spent a lot of time on devtome so of course I have views, but that is not the point to me - there's nothing fundamentally wrong with devtome only in how it impacts upon the wider Devcoin project.

You refer to mutuality as if it’s something you’ve considered and concluded upon as balanced - I just don’t see where such benefits exist. What ‘value’ do I add to Devcoin in posting writings on devtome? There’s value is somebody reads it as original, enjoys it, shares it, buys or spreads the word about Devcoin equivalent to that earned from it. Otherwise it’s a one-way trade or a skewed trade.

So what also annoys me is when those benefiting from a skewed incentive structure then pronounce the mutual benefit to the concept of the status-quo, a continuation. For every share that say I earn, that diminishes somebody else’s reward. That’s just the way it works - and that's fine but in my opinion that needs to be accounted for by being able to justify greater relative value. I can't see how/where that's even been considered.

The issue I think you miss is that it’s not really the ‘client’ paying you - it’s me, him, her and everybody else that has, could have or will have Devcoins. You are one of the decsion-makers because you have the ability to offer opinion, act and transact to the benefit or detriment of devcoin. Electing to hide behind the defence of a particular professional artist-client relationship while in full knowledge of the costs to a viable continuity of such a relationship is I think slightly disingenuous, and from what I’ve read and heard of your opinion not in line with your general outlook.

However, regardless of my view it is only my view and not necessarily that of others. Like you I also have to make a decision as to whether or not it's still beneficial to me to continue, so thanks for sticking your head above the parapet and building on the discussion.

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