Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[Wandererfromthenorth]

If they didn't destroy Bitcoin is not because they never wanted to, but because they can't.

They can't?

1: Spend the necessary capital to 51% attack the network. Destroy it.
Good luck creating another bitcoin that people will trust after that.



2: Wire $20M-$50M on various bitcoin exchanges and short it down to single digits and beyond in one go totally destroying confidence.
Currently there are around $15M in bids (lol) on all major exchanges combined and plenty of longs that can be completely margin called ($23M+ on bitfinex alone for example), it should be fairly easy.

Not only $20M-$50M is nothing for them if they are inclined in "killing" BTC, they would also make a very good profit on top of it.


They could destroy bitcoin is they wanted to. Thing is, they probably DGAF.

[Spaceman_Spiff]

2: Wire $20M-$50M on various bitcoin exchanges and short it down to single digits and beyond in one go totally destroying confidence.
Currently there are around $15M in bids (lol) on all major exchanges combined and plenty of longs that can be completely margin called ($23M+ on bitfinex alone for example), it should be fairly easy.
Not only $20M-$50M is nothing for them if they are inclined in "killing" BTC, they would also make a very good profit on top of it.

yeah, if ever something like that were to occur, BTC would be finished for sure...   



Inb4 "This Time is Different^TM "

[jmw74]

If they didn't destroy Bitcoin is not because they never wanted to, but because they can't.

They can't?

1: Spend the necessary capital to 51% attack the network. Destroy it.
Good luck creating another bitcoin that people will trust after that.

2: Wire $20M-$50M on various bitcoin exchanges and short it down to single digits and beyond in one go totally destroying confidence.
Currently there are around $15M in bids (lol) on all major exchanges combined and plenty of longs that can be completely margin called ($23M+ on bitfinex alone for example), it should be fairly easy.

Not only $20M-$50M is nothing for them if they are inclined in "killing" BTC, they would also make a very good profit on top of it.


They could destroy bitcoin is they wanted to. Thing is, they probably DGAF.

That won't destroy bitcoin, it will just make its user base smaller in the short term.

From there it will grow again. It has to, it's too useful to just "go away".

Bitcoin (the neutral money concept) can't be destroyed as long as there's a group of people who desire it. I don't think people will stop desiring it, ever.

Attacks from the state (propaganda, threats, DOS) may prevent bitcoin from going fully mainstream, but even if it remains niche, it will likely be a larger niche than it occupies today.

[Wandererfromthenorth]

2: Wire $20M-$50M on various bitcoin exchanges and short it down to single digits and beyond in one go totally destroying confidence.
Currently there are around $15M in bids (lol) on all major exchanges combined and plenty of longs that can be completely margin called ($23M+ on bitfinex alone for example), it should be fairly easy.
Not only $20M-$50M is nothing for them if they are inclined in "killing" BTC, they would also make a very good profit on top of it.

yeah, if ever something like that were to occur, BTC would be finished for sure...  



Inb4 "This Time is Different^TM "

Are you serious?

So you think that crashing from $0.06 to $0.01 in the early days (for just a few moments) when BTC was traded by a handful of people at mtgox with a few k of trading volume and crashing to say single digits now after having reached $1200 and having stayed in triple digit range for more than a year are pretty much the same thing?

Are you for real


Because yeah, if somebody uses $20M to short BTC to single digits in a few weeks/months and keeping it there for a decent amount of time, confidence is not killed. Bitcoin eventually recovers and everything is just fine.
Sure

[lunarboy]

If it went down that far i'd buy 21 mill 

[Spaceman_Spiff]

2: Wire $20M-$50M on various bitcoin exchanges and short it down to single digits and beyond in one go totally destroying confidence.
Currently there are around $15M in bids (lol) on all major exchanges combined and plenty of longs that can be completely margin called ($23M+ on bitfinex alone for example), it should be fairly easy.
Not only $20M-$50M is nothing for them if they are inclined in "killing" BTC, they would also make a very good profit on top of it.

yeah, if ever something like that were to occur, BTC would be finished for sure...  



Inb4 "This Time is Different^TM "

Are you serious?

So you think that crashing from $0.06 to $0.01 in the early days (for just a few moments) when BTC was traded by a handful of people at mtgox with a few k of trading volume and crashing to say single digits now after having reached $1200 and having stayed in triple digit range for more than a year are pretty much the same thing?

Are you for real


Because yeah, if somebody uses $20M to short BTC to single digits in a few weeks/months and keeping it there for a decent amount of time, confidence is not killed. Bitcoin eventually recovers and everything is just fine.
Sure

God you people are predictable.

[cypherdoc]

If they didn't destroy Bitcoin is not because they never wanted to, but because they can't.

They can't?

1: Spend the necessary capital to 51% attack the network. Destroy it.
Good luck creating another bitcoin that people will trust after that.



2: Wire $20M-$50M on various bitcoin exchanges and short it down to single digits and beyond in one go totally destroying confidence.
Currently there are around $15M in bids (lol) on all major exchanges combined and plenty of longs that can be completely margin called ($23M+ on bitfinex alone for example), it should be fairly easy.

Not only $20M-$50M is nothing for them if they are inclined in "killing" BTC, they would also make a very good profit on top of it.


They could destroy bitcoin is they wanted to. Thing is, they probably DGAF.

for someone who claims not to be a newbie troll, you sure argue like it.

these issues have been discussed ad nauseum since day 1 2009.  i won't bother with the 51% attack since it hasn't happened and probably never will.  too much effort for lazy fiat artists who would rather manipulate than actually work.  while they could try to short it down using the few exchanges that do allow it, they would be taking huge risk in leaving such large amounts on exchanges presumably unfriendly to their cause and overseas.  audits will help prevent this along with the risk of these centralized exchanges being hacked or shut down like Evo walking off with all their funds.  if that ever happened, lots of heads would roll at these 3 letter agencies or banks.  there's no printing of BTC to bail them out either.

[Spaceman_Spiff]

for someone who claims not to be a newbie troll, you sure argue like it.

these issues have been discussed ad nauseum since day 1 2009.  i won't bother with the 51% attack since it hasn't happened and probably never will.  too much effort for lazy fiat artists who would rather manipulate than actually work.  while they could try to short it down using the few exchanges that do allow it, they would be taking huge risk in leaving such large amounts on exchanges presumably unfriendly to their cause and overseas.  audits will help prevent this along with the risk of these centralized exchanges being hacked or shut down like Evo walking off with all their funds.  if that ever happened, lots of heads would roll at these 3 letter agencies or banks.  there's no printing of BTC to bail them out either.

The lower you drive the price, the more ammo you give to your 'opponents'.   Great strategy he is proposing  .  Well I guess it could work if the world only contained panicking headless chicken-types and no determined investors.

[Wandererfromthenorth]

If they didn't destroy Bitcoin is not because they never wanted to, but because they can't.

They can't?

1: Spend the necessary capital to 51% attack the network. Destroy it.
Good luck creating another bitcoin that people will trust after that.



2: Wire $20M-$50M on various bitcoin exchanges and short it down to single digits and beyond in one go totally destroying confidence.
Currently there are around $15M in bids (lol) on all major exchanges combined and plenty of longs that can be completely margin called ($23M+ on bitfinex alone for example), it should be fairly easy.

Not only $20M-$50M is nothing for them if they are inclined in "killing" BTC, they would also make a very good profit on top of it.


They could destroy bitcoin is they wanted to. Thing is, they probably DGAF.

for someone who claims not to be a newbie troll, you sure argue like it.

these issues have been discussed ad nauseum since day 1 2009.  i won't bother with the 51% attack since it hasn't happened and probably never will.  too much effort for lazy fiat artists who would rather manipulate than actually work.  while they could try to short it down using the few exchanges that do allow it, they would be taking huge risk in leaving such large amounts on exchanges presumably unfriendly to their cause and overseas.  audits will help prevent this along with the risk of these centralized exchanges being hacked or shut down like Evo walking off with all their funds.  if that ever happened, lots of heads would roll at these 3 letter agencies or banks.  there's no printing of BTC to bail them out either.

Personal attacks, Great.

"51% attack never happened so it never will"?
What kind of logic is that? somebody said "THEY can't do anything to destroy bitcoin". I said that this is completely false. They can. That's it.

"they would be taking huge risk in leaving such large amounts on exchanges presumably unfriendly to their cause and overseas"
So? They would risk to lose $20M.  The cost of attacking the network is a lot higher. So why should the government or anybody else that is inclined in "killing BTC" care about possibly losing that?

Worst case senario: they lose $20M and they kill confidence in bitcoin. Mission accomplished. They pretty much paid (not much) to kill it.
Best case scenario: mission accomplished + a nice profit.


You are making up stories. Considering how little money is needed to short bitcoin down to whatever price, nothing prevents me, evil entity from the gubermint, to wire what I want on exchanges and short it how I please.



PS: yeah, 2009. I'm sure in 2009 you were all talking about the possibility of killing confidence in BTC by using reliable margin trading for BTC which didn't even exist.
Right.


I know you hate anybody who posts bearish opinions. I'm just not drinking your kool-aid.

[Wandererfromthenorth]

for someone who claims not to be a newbie troll, you sure argue like it.

these issues have been discussed ad nauseum since day 1 2009.  i won't bother with the 51% attack since it hasn't happened and probably never will.  too much effort for lazy fiat artists who would rather manipulate than actually work.  while they could try to short it down using the few exchanges that do allow it, they would be taking huge risk in leaving such large amounts on exchanges presumably unfriendly to their cause and overseas.  audits will help prevent this along with the risk of these centralized exchanges being hacked or shut down like Evo walking off with all their funds.  if that ever happened, lots of heads would roll at these 3 letter agencies or banks.  there's no printing of BTC to bail them out either.

The lower you drive the price, the more ammo you give to your 'opponents'.   Great strategy he is proposing  .  Well I guess it could work if the world only contained panicking headless chicken-types and no determined investors.

I'm not sure you understand how much little money (in relative terms) is needed for these scenarios to happen.

[cypherdoc]

If they didn't destroy Bitcoin is not because they never wanted to, but because they can't.

They can't?

1: Spend the necessary capital to 51% attack the network. Destroy it.
Good luck creating another bitcoin that people will trust after that.



2: Wire $20M-$50M on various bitcoin exchanges and short it down to single digits and beyond in one go totally destroying confidence.
Currently there are around $15M in bids (lol) on all major exchanges combined and plenty of longs that can be completely margin called ($23M+ on bitfinex alone for example), it should be fairly easy.

Not only $20M-$50M is nothing for them if they are inclined in "killing" BTC, they would also make a very good profit on top of it.


They could destroy bitcoin is they wanted to. Thing is, they probably DGAF.

for someone who claims not to be a newbie troll, you sure argue like it.

these issues have been discussed ad nauseum since day 1 2009.  i won't bother with the 51% attack since it hasn't happened and probably never will.  too much effort for lazy fiat artists who would rather manipulate than actually work.  while they could try to short it down using the few exchanges that do allow it, they would be taking huge risk in leaving such large amounts on exchanges presumably unfriendly to their cause and overseas.  audits will help prevent this along with the risk of these centralized exchanges being hacked or shut down like Evo walking off with all their funds.  if that ever happened, lots of heads would roll at these 3 letter agencies or banks.  there's no printing of BTC to bail them out either.

Personal attacks, Great.

"51% attack never happened so it never will"?
What kind of logic is that? somebody said that "THEY can't do anything to destroy bitcoin". I said that this is false. That's it.

"they would be taking huge risk in leaving such large amounts on exchanges presumably unfriendly to their cause and overseas"
So? They would risk to lose $20M.  The cost of attacking the network is a lot higher. So why should the government or anybody else that is inclined in "killing BTC" care about possibly losing that?

Worst case senario: they lose $20M and they kill confidence in bitcoin. Mission accomplished. They pretty much paid (not much) to kill it.
Best case scenario: mission accomplished + a nice profit.


You are making up stories. Considering how little money is needed to short bitcoin down to whatever price, nothing prevents me, evil entity from the gubermint, to wire what I want on exchanges and short it how I please.



PS: yeah, 2009. I'm sure in 2009 you were all talking about the possibility of killing confidence in BTC by using reliable margin trading for BTC which didn't even exist.
Right.


I know you hate anybody who posts bearish opinions. I'm just not drinking your kool-aid.

no, i'm just looking at historical facts.

the more time that goes by w/o a 51% attack, the less the chances of it happening.  what happened to yours and everyone elses FUD about the pools themselves organizing to do it?  oh, it just so happens we've had a nice evening out of the distribution of those very exchanges as predicted making them, imo, a non issue concerning these attacks.  so now you have to move your goalposts and claim the gvt can just do it totally neglecting the fact that someone in the huge chip manufacturing industry would probably rat out the huge chip orders required. there's a large queue for these types of orders from the likes of Apple and Microsoft. do you think they'll just step aside for a few months for their chip orders?  what i'm saying is their is too much political risk for gvts to perform this sort of attack.  they do have to maintain a modicum of legitimacy and wiping out positions of Microsoft, IBM, Google, Paypal, Overstock, Dell, hedge funds, VC funds, and many other ppl probably won't sit well.

at least back in 2011, i was talking about naked shorts:

theres also the problem with the owners of the exchange being tempted to allow naked shorting by their customers.  in other words, they pretend to give you (generic) shares to short which they don't own simply for the fee involved in making that sale.  this can create all sorts of problems as Overstock.com and Tazer experienced with thousands of shares sold (shorted) on the mkt way greater than the actual number of shares issued.  at this stage of the game where BTC is such a nascent concept, i would avoid this complexity which could cause alot of harm.

[Wandererfromthenorth]

what happened to yours and everyone elses FUD about the pools themselves organizing to do it?  

Looks like a bitcoin core developer is expressing that same FUD!
Heresy!

Quick! Shoot him down!

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572517325250801664?lang=en
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519382108139520
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519758769213440



If I wire millions on exchanges (the thing that should happen in order for BTC to go in a sustainable uptrend again... which doesn't look like it's happening by looking at the decreasing bid sum) nobody knows what I want to do with them in advance.
Once I have them on the exchange, I can short all I want. And if I am an hypothetical entity that has the mission to kill confidence in bitcoin, I don't care about losing them all.
It's that simple.

[justusranvier]

Considering how little money is needed to short bitcoin down to whatever price

Which exchanges allow naked shorting?

[cypherdoc]

what happened to yours and everyone elses FUD about the pools themselves organizing to do it?  

Looks like a bitcoin core developer is expressing that same FUD!
Heresy!

Quick! Shoot him down!

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572517325250801664?lang=en
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519382108139520
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519758769213440

whoa!  i guess if Peter Todd said it, it must be true!

look, i like Peter for the most part, but his specialty is stirring the pot. 

[Wandererfromthenorth]

what happened to yours and everyone elses FUD about the pools themselves organizing to do it?  

Looks like a bitcoin core developer is expressing that same FUD!
Heresy!

Quick! Shoot him down!

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572517325250801664?lang=en
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519382108139520
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519758769213440

whoa!  i guess if Peter Todd said it, it must be true!

look, i like Peter for the most part, but his specialty is stirring the pot.  

I didn't say that because he said it it must be true, I just show that it's not just a bunch of FUD by some bitcointalk trolls like you are trying to picture it.

[cypherdoc]

what happened to yours and everyone elses FUD about the pools themselves organizing to do it?  

Looks like a bitcoin core developer is expressing that same FUD!
Heresy!

Quick! Shoot him down!

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572517325250801664?lang=en
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519382108139520
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519758769213440

whoa!  i guess if Peter Todd said it, it must be true!

look, i like Peter for the most part, but his specialty is stirring the pot.  

I didn't say that because he said it it must be true, I just show that it's not just a bunch of FUD by some bitcointalk trolls like you are trying to picture it.

i call you a troll b/c it's obvious to everyone around here that when you start a bunch of FUD threads that are meant to generate fear and selling, you lose credibility. like this one:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001698.0  if you'll notice, i don't start threads.  i pretty much stay here b/c my goal is to generate and maintain quality, relatively academic Bitcoin discussion within this thread that has become known and has gained credibility.  i'm not into headlines, like you.  so yeah, if you enter here with that same FUD, i will call you out and expect something more from you.

[cypherdoc]

what happened to yours and everyone elses FUD about the pools themselves organizing to do it?  

Looks like a bitcoin core developer is expressing that same FUD!
Heresy!

Quick! Shoot him down!

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572517325250801664?lang=en
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519382108139520
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519758769213440

whoa!  i guess if Peter Todd said it, it must be true!

look, i like Peter for the most part, but his specialty is stirring the pot.  

I didn't say that because he said it it must be true, I just show that it's not just a bunch of FUD by some bitcointalk trolls like you are trying to picture it.

geez, lots of smart ppl getting involved.  why not you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCVqfpTSqug

[Wandererfromthenorth]

what happened to yours and everyone elses FUD about the pools themselves organizing to do it?  

Looks like a bitcoin core developer is expressing that same FUD!
Heresy!

Quick! Shoot him down!

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572517325250801664?lang=en
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519382108139520
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519758769213440

whoa!  i guess if Peter Todd said it, it must be true!

look, i like Peter for the most part, but his specialty is stirring the pot.  

I didn't say that because he said it it must be true, I just show that it's not just a bunch of FUD by some bitcointalk trolls like you are trying to picture it.

i call you a troll b/c it's obvious to everyone around here that when you start a bunch of FUD threads that are meant to generate fear and selling, you lose credibility. like this one:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001698.0  if you'll notice, i don't start threads.  i pretty much stay here b/c my goal is to generate and maintain quality, relatively academic Bitcoin discussion within this thread that has become known and has gained credibility.  i'm not into headlines, like you.  so yeah, if you enter here with that same FUD, i will call you out and expect something more from you.

Ok, so you think a thread on bitcointalk can influence the price of the BTC markets, and that is the reason I actually opened a thread. Not because I wanted to give my honest opinion about what I think is currently happening. Nah.
I opened similar threads when price was at $1000, $800, $570, $400 etc offering similar technical arguments. I guess those were FUD too.

I clearly see that in your thread you guys are not interested in reading any bearish/contrarian opinions without flagging it as FUD, bullshit and attacking the posters personally (even though they didn't do it in their posts expressing their opinions).
I never attacked anybody personally, just expressed an opinion.

You guys can carry on and jerk each other off while bitcoin unexpectedly dumps.

I remember Spiff talking about how he couldn't wait for the delusional bears to FUD and dump into his bids at $500-$390.
Because losing several billions of marketcap in one year is just the same as flash crashing for a few moments because of a $50k dump or whatever in 2010. Of course it would be the same.
Only fools think that "This Time is Different™".


Carry on good sir, I won't be posting in this thread from now on, don't worry.

[cypherdoc]

what happened to yours and everyone elses FUD about the pools themselves organizing to do it?  

Looks like a bitcoin core developer is expressing that same FUD!
Heresy!

Quick! Shoot him down!

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572517325250801664?lang=en
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519382108139520
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/572519758769213440

whoa!  i guess if Peter Todd said it, it must be true!

look, i like Peter for the most part, but his specialty is stirring the pot.  

I didn't say that because he said it it must be true, I just show that it's not just a bunch of FUD by some bitcointalk trolls like you are trying to picture it.

i call you a troll b/c it's obvious to everyone around here that when you start a bunch of FUD threads that are meant to generate fear and selling, you lose credibility. like this one:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001698.0  if you'll notice, i don't start threads.  i pretty much stay here b/c my goal is to generate and maintain quality, relatively academic Bitcoin discussion within this thread that has become known and has gained credibility.  i'm not into headlines, like you.  so yeah, if you enter here with that same FUD, i will call you out and expect something more from you.

Ok, so you think a thread on bitcointalk can influence the price of the BTC markets, and that is the reason I actually opened a thread. Not because I wanted to give my honest opinion about what I think is currently happening. Nah.
I opened similar threads when price was at $1000, $800, $570, $400 etc offering similar technical arguments. I guess those were FUD too.

I clearly see that in your thread you guys are not interested in reading any bearish/contrarian opinions without flagging it as FUD, bullshit and attacking the posters personally (even though they didn't do it in their posts expressing their opinions).
I never attacked anybody personally, just expressed an opinion.

You guys can carry on and jerk each other off while bitcoin unexpectedly dumps.

I remember Spiff talking about how he couldn't wait for the delusional bears to FUD and dump into his bids at $500-$390.
Because losing several billions of marketcap in one year is just the same as flash crashing for a few moments because of a $50k dump or whatever before recovering in 2010. Of course it would be the same.
Only fools think that "This Time is Different™".


Carry on good sir, I won't be posting in this thread anymore, don't worry.

we all have our runs where we're spectacularly right; and spectacularly wrong.  it's ok.  they're called cycles.  i've alway said that i won't keep quiet even during my down times b/c i think i understand the fundamentals of what's happening.  if one steps back and looks at the Big Pic, even you should be able to see that Bitcoin has done spectacularly well in a short 6 yrs.  price is just one metric of how it's doing and at times even it is irrational; to both peaks and troughs.  it's a reflection of market emotion; fear and greed which alternate.  that's why i don't trade.  no one says you can't be a bear.  i just think you're going to be spectacularly wrong.

[Spaceman_Spiff]

The lower you drive the price, the more ammo you give to your 'opponents'.   Great strategy he is proposing  .  Well I guess it could work if the world only contained panicking headless chicken-types and no determined investors.

I'm not sure you understand how much little money (in relative terms) is needed for these scenarios to happen.

I am sure you don't understand how little impact this will have in the long run.