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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3007891 times)
Phoenix1969
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LIR DEV


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October 15, 2013, 02:03:56 AM
 #16021

yup, new psu fixed aussie adventure
do not use silverstone 850's
or at least never unplug it from the wall
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=287


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DeathAndTaxes
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October 15, 2013, 02:27:26 AM
 #16022

No it won't be 22 billion.  But 4-5 billion by April is very possible.  Just wait till hardware is marked down which will cause more irrational buying.  These ASIC chips and boards probably cost $50 each.  ASIC manufacturers will adjust accordingly so they can continue to sell equipment.  The ball is in their court.

Or not.  The DC regulators on the board cost more than that.  

Can ASIC prices come down?  Yes but even with free ASICs the balance of the system is still going to have some cost and those costs are unlikely to get massively reduced over time.   An  x00 watt PSU is going to have a non zero cost.  PCB creation and assembly, DC regulators, even mundane things like fans, heatsinks, cables, and cases.   There is no Moore's law or massive markup on these components.  With free ASICs you still wouldn't have $50 boards.

The best "kits" i have seen thus far to make costs low is Bitfury chips with c-scape design.

Leave's the cost of the incidentals up the the purchaser rather than the manufacturer/seller

For bitfury the original first batch of chips cost was priced at $5 a GH. At least according to Tytus's picostock post ...

Quote

Summary:

Strong aspects:
-   low investment costs: only $5 / 1GH/s (4 times cheaper than competing products)
-   low maintenance costs due to low power dissipation of the chip: approximately 0.2-0.3 Watt / 1GH/s (4-20 time better than competition)
-   4 year manufacturer warranty
Weak aspects:
-   chip not tested yet, tape out in 1 month (full mask, engineering run), final simulation results will be posted in 2 weeks
-   deployment of 100TH-mine in July 2013

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140366.msg1494509#msg1494509

Well the ASIC chips themselves can be much much cheaper than $5/GH especially a design with high die efficiency (GH/mm2), sub $1 is certainly possible.  Still the point is that while raw chip prices will fall rapidly from $50 per GH/s down to $1 per GH/s the balance of the system won't fall as rapidly.

Lets just look at a generic large ASIC chip design.  Say 150 GH/s per chip at 100W (@ chip) with 4 modules per rig.   If the chip is running at 0.8V nominal you are looking at 125A of DC regulators.  The prebuilt modules used by KNC are about $0.50 per A in bulk.  Lets say someone went with a custom design at half that cost.   125A @ $0.10 per A =  $12.50 per board or 8.3 cent per GH.

If you use an off the shelf CPU cooler heatsink & fan assembly you are looking at $20 ea for something which can handle 150W+.   Throw in another 4 case fans at $7 ea and cooling is $108 per system or $0.18 per GH.

The rest of the board is relatively cheap.  Rather than go through ever component lets just budget $10 for all connectors, caps, resistors, fan headers, etc.  KNC boards are ~36 sq inches.  PCB production in small batches tends to be $0.20 per sq in.  We are looking at $7 for production.   Assembly and testing is going to vary by the number and type of components but even in volume on simple boards is going to be a couple bucks.  As a guesstimate lets say another $3.  So we are looking at on the order of $0.07 ea for balance of components and production/assembly.

A good quality and efficiency ATX PSU is going to be on the order of $0.16 per W.  If we assume each of 4 chips use 100W ea, 11W per board is lost in conversion, and then 8 fans (4 heatsink + 4 host) use another 6W each, the host is likely light at 10W max.   Total wattage is something like 500W.  Power ends up being $0.14 per GH.

You probably need some sort of data and power connector.  Lets say $5 ea or $0.07 per GH/s.  Finally you will need some host.  BBB is a good option cheap and yet relatively powerful and ease to develop for.  Now KNC uses a seperate expensive daughterboard with FPGA "manager" but that likely isn't necessary.  It may be possible to do it with just a BBB (or rPi) to save cost.  Say $50 per system or $0.08 per GH.

So even if magically a pile of free chips landed in your lap with no labor costs, no customer service, no profit, and no yield losses at a min we are looking at.

DC regulators = $0.08 per GH
Balance of components = $0.07 per GH
PCB production &  assembly = $0.07 per GH
Cooling = $0.18 per GH
Power = $0.14 per GH
Cables = $0.07 per GH
Host = $0.08 per GH
Total (at least) = ~$0.70 per GH.

Nobody is going to be selling 150 GH/s boards for $50.    As the margins on chips decline the "balance of the system" will act like a drag on marginal cost.  Also the prices above are rather optimistic.  More like what could be done instead of what is being done.  If you need water cooling, or want rackmount case your cost will be higher.   It also assumes a relatively efficient chip, lower efficiency means more power and cooling related costs.  Still I think chips can break $1 GH/s and the bulk of the system cost being another $0.70 to $1.00.  Even with labor cost and a small profit margin we "could" be seeing miners at around $2 per GH in 2014 but those dreaming of the day when $0.25 per GH rigs are right around the corner will be waiting a while.




Paladin69
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October 15, 2013, 02:33:59 AM
 #16023

Saturn purchasers losing $100 per day because of delays
Jupiter purchasers losing $200 per day because of delays


No employees of KNC to be found.

No orders after order #19xx or pay date June 10th have shipped

Clearly there has been a huge gap in the shipping process. Seems like the line has stopped for many days.

Still calling for anyone who actually works for the company to show their face and tell us what is going on.




I'm losing close to $100 per day on a botched Jupiter due to one shitty card.  Anna...you're cute...but you give me stupid advice and make me sit and wait longer.
She said "make sure you are running FW 0.95 and test the bad card by itself"

duh...

Now I wait another 24 hours for them to give me an RMA # if I'm lucky.  They will probably make me send mine back to Sweden first before giving me a new one.

That is actually worse than BFL.  They would send me a new board ASAP without wait.
soy
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October 15, 2013, 02:36:31 AM
 #16024

yup, new psu fixed aussie adventure
do not use silverstone 850's
or at least never unplug it from the wall
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=287

I bought one of these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JUMP-START-EPS-ATX-24-PIN-POWER-SUPPLY-WITHOUT-A-MOTHERBOARD-MADE-IN-USA-/251029042274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a727f3462

Somebody else had posted a link for one of these and I thought it a great idea.  When the power supply is shut down both the 12v and the 5v are attached to the miner and its rails go low.  The 3.3 volts from the supply might not because there's no load.  With one of these in place, when the power supply is shut off the 3.3 v rail goes low as well because it now has a load.

I'm doing something else to power my Mercury but I do sometimes use switching power supplies as a voltage source so I like this.



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demonmaestro
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Mining for the hell of it.


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October 15, 2013, 02:58:55 AM
 #16025

Well considering today is D-day i expect some big news. Angry

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October 15, 2013, 03:24:59 AM
 #16026

Well considering today is D-day i expect some big news. Angry
News ? Lol, a lot of folks here believed knc will ship more then 500 boxes in a day Smiley now they use a Josh tactics "be quiet, we are in schedule". Why we don't askfor refund and pre order again for beter prices
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October 15, 2013, 03:27:31 AM
 #16027

Well considering today is D-day i expect some big news. Angry

Wishful thinking.
demonmaestro
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October 15, 2013, 03:38:16 AM
 #16028

Key word. expect. rather if it will happen or not is a different story.

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October 15, 2013, 03:52:53 AM
 #16029

So it's almost 6am Oct. 15 in Sweden......UPS shows up to pickup units at 2:30pm to KNC warehouse, then you get an email. 
loktang1125
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October 15, 2013, 03:58:47 AM
 #16030

So it's almost 6am Oct. 15 in Sweden......UPS shows up to pickup units at 2:30pm to KNC warehouse, then you get an email. 
good luck to everyone havent get the rig yet
Sitarow
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October 15, 2013, 03:59:38 AM
 #16031

So it's almost 6am Oct. 15 in Sweden......UPS shows up to pickup units at 2:30pm to KNC warehouse, then you get an email. 
good luck to everyone havent get the rig yet

Malmo Sturup, Sweden    10/14/2013    22:35   Arrival Scan
Jonkoping, Sweden    10/14/2013    18:45   Departure Scan
Sweden    10/14/2013    8:00   Order Processed: Ready for UPS
DPoS
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October 15, 2013, 04:15:28 AM
 #16032

So it's almost 6am Oct. 15 in Sweden......UPS shows up to pickup units at 2:30pm to KNC warehouse, then you get an email. 
good luck to everyone havent get the rig yet

Malmo Sturup, Sweden    10/14/2013    22:35   Arrival Scan
Jonkoping, Sweden    10/14/2013    18:45   Departure Scan
Sweden    10/14/2013    8:00   Order Processed: Ready for UPS

Welcome to the world of 4 VRMs Sitarow !!   Grin

~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~Play Boardgames for Bitcoins!!~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~ Something I say help? Donate BTC! 1KN1K1xStzsgfYxdArSX4PEjFfcLEuYhid
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October 15, 2013, 04:19:30 AM
 #16033

Quoting myself from KNC forums:

"KNC, what compensation will you provide for orders shipped past Oct 15th? You need to offer us, the buyers, your proposed form of compensation before the deadline so we can decide whether we accept it or not, in which case some of us might opt out for a full refund.

Here are some suggestions:

- 0.35 BTC/day/board, starting Oct 16th or
- 25% free hashing power delivered at the same time with our main order, if order will be delivered until 21st Oct, more after that date to reflect difficulty increase

Anything less and I'm considering cancelling my order and legal action if you refuse full refund."

Some happy user that received his unit/s commented:
"1.4 a day is best case scenario running a jupiter.. real world is not that easy. this isn't going to happen anyway but if so i would then like to get compensation for each day that I was running less than 1.4 for each miner "

My answer to that is:
"I have absolutely nothing against KNC performing any kind of benefactor actions for its customers out of their good will. However, I based my requests out of legal obligation towards customers who suffer losses due to their false commercial claims. In easy words: they don't "owe" you anything cause you received your miners until 15th, now they are in a "guilty" position towards customers that didn't receive miners until 15th. A serious company would most likely go with impressive compensations at this point, but, indeed, I don't expect KNC to do that. They live under the false impression that they are legally covered by those terms, but it's not the case because any court of law in EU will consider those terms to vague to constitute a viable contractual clause, while a clearly stated claim posted on their front page of miners being delivered until 15th will be consider commercially binding."

Yes, it is the time for Sam and co to go have a serious talk to their lawyers about the fee they payed for those business terms, cause they're about to face a shitstorm of valid claims from customers!

And to clarify this, you can indeed use a contractual clause that "delivery delays won't be sanctioned towards the seller" but even for "future sale promise" a date of completion must be specified. If it's not, the contractual clause is considered "illegal" and therefore, void.

1CmrswU7JYpi9WNC8EHWCV3aam1FJsW2Zu - to show appreciation for my work
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October 15, 2013, 04:31:20 AM
 #16034

Quoting myself from KNC forums:

"KNC, what compensation will you provide for orders shipped past Oct 15th? You need to offer us, the buyers, your proposed form of compensation before the deadline so we can decide whether we accept it or not, in which case some of us might opt out for a full refund.

Here are some suggestions:

- 0.35 BTC/day/board, starting Oct 16th or
- 25% free hashing power delivered at the same time with our main order, if order will be delivered until 21st Oct, more after that date to reflect difficulty increase

Anything less and I'm considering cancelling my order and legal action if you refuse full refund."

Some happy user that received his unit/s commented:
"1.4 a day is best case scenario running a jupiter.. real world is not that easy. this isn't going to happen anyway but if so i would then like to get compensation for each day that I was running less than 1.4 for each miner "

My answer to that is:
"I have absolutely nothing against KNC performing any kind of benefactor actions for its customers out of their good will. However, I based my requests out of legal obligation towards customers who suffer losses due to their false commercial claims. In easy words: they don't "owe" you anything cause you received your miners until 15th, now they are in a "guilty" position towards customers that didn't receive miners until 15th. A serious company would most likely go with impressive compensations at this point, but, indeed, I don't expect KNC to do that. They live under the false impression that they are legally covered by those terms, but it's not the case because any court of law in EU will consider those terms to vague to constitute a viable contractual clause, while a clearly stated claim posted on their front page of miners being delivered until 15th will be consider commercially binding."

Yes, it is the time for Sam and co to go have a serious talk to their lawyers about the fee they payed for those business terms, cause they're about to face a shitstorm of valid claims from customers!
lol really? 25% free hash. that's not fair for ppl who got their rigs already which they paid earlier than you
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October 15, 2013, 04:32:37 AM
 #16035

So it's almost 6am Oct. 15 in Sweden......UPS shows up to pickup units at 2:30pm to KNC warehouse, then you get an email. 
good luck to everyone havent get the rig yet

Malmo Sturup, Sweden    10/14/2013    22:35   Arrival Scan
Jonkoping, Sweden    10/14/2013    18:45   Departure Scan
Sweden    10/14/2013    8:00   Order Processed: Ready for UPS

Welcome to the world of 4 VRMs Sitarow !!   Grin

More testing to do.
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October 15, 2013, 04:35:19 AM
 #16036

Quoting myself from KNC forums:

"KNC, what compensation will you provide for orders shipped past Oct 15th? You need to offer us, the buyers, your proposed form of compensation before the deadline so we can decide whether we accept it or not, in which case some of us might opt out for a full refund.

Here are some suggestions:

- 0.35 BTC/day/board, starting Oct 16th or
- 25% free hashing power delivered at the same time with our main order, if order will be delivered until 21st Oct, more after that date to reflect difficulty increase

Anything less and I'm considering cancelling my order and legal action if you refuse full refund."

Some happy user that received his unit/s commented:
"1.4 a day is best case scenario running a jupiter.. real world is not that easy. this isn't going to happen anyway but if so i would then like to get compensation for each day that I was running less than 1.4 for each miner "

My answer to that is:
"I have absolutely nothing against KNC performing any kind of benefactor actions for its customers out of their good will. However, I based my requests out of legal obligation towards customers who suffer losses due to their false commercial claims. In easy words: they don't "owe" you anything cause you received your miners until 15th, now they are in a "guilty" position towards customers that didn't receive miners until 15th. A serious company would most likely go with impressive compensations at this point, but, indeed, I don't expect KNC to do that. They live under the false impression that they are legally covered by those terms, but it's not the case because any court of law in EU will consider those terms to vague to constitute a viable contractual clause, while a clearly stated claim posted on their front page of miners being delivered until 15th will be consider commercially binding."

Yes, it is the time for Sam and co to go have a serious talk to their lawyers about the fee they payed for those business terms, cause they're about to face a shitstorm of valid claims from customers!

Hopefully it wont have to come to this, but there lack of silence is glaring, especially since we have to get vague  answers via pm, or from someone who doesn't even work for them in any official capacity, yet still carries there torch so to speak. Hopefully they'll do the right thing, if not then count me in for any legal action if absolutely necessary, shoot me a pm. Bottom line Knc we need to hear from you please, not anybody else. (day 1, 23x order for the record)
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October 15, 2013, 04:40:48 AM
 #16037


@samo

No news on your order? Have you sent an email to customer support with your order number and payment details??
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October 15, 2013, 04:43:44 AM
 #16038

Maybe we should start a separate thread and get everyone wanting to go through with this.  there is no way they are going to provided by the 15th.  and i have sent a few e-emails my self to knc.  And i keep telling them if they can not ship by the 15th i want a refund,  Or  some sort of fair compensation,  they just keep saying there is no refunds at this time.  Yadda yadda ..  and ignore the  questions about compensation.   This is getting old very fast.   And wow a day one order and still have not received it???  I have a july 3rd order my self.  been in processing since last Friday.

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Kaliecious
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October 15, 2013, 04:46:43 AM
 #16039

Saturn purchasers losing $100 per day because of delays
Jupiter purchasers losing $200 per day because of delays


No employees of KNC to be found.

No orders after order #19xx or pay date June 10th have shipped

Clearly there has been a huge gap in the shipping process. Seems like the line has stopped for many days.

Still calling for anyone who actually works for the company to show their face and tell us what is going on.




I was a june 10th order, got mine last week Monday


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October 15, 2013, 04:53:37 AM
 #16040

In easy words: they don't "owe" you anything cause you received your miners until 15th, now they are in a "guilty" position towards customers that didn't receive miners until 15th. A serious company would most likely go with impressive compensations at this point,

I feel ya, but if they did this I'd give my jupiters to anyone and tell KNC to ship next year as long as I got my daily BTC compensation!!

Here is what I think happened...  at first they made hotrod 8 VRM miners with firmware .90 that early customers said really performed.. we didn't have bertmod's firmware so no one knows if they were pushing those VRMs hard like the 4 VRMs ended heating up but they were high total watts, so yeah, probably hashed like monsters

well..  bean counter guys say, we don't **really** need to be doing all this and can cut out some serious expenses and strip down the 4 VRMs/caps/etc per board.
(bye bye margins upon margins)
They may or may not of plugged one in and noticed they were still 300 watts more than a '.91 fixed' 8 VRM miner and worse since the voltage/amps/heat are off the charts..... but kinda late once they made a pile of miners and HAD to ship them regardless..(I think I got the first miner with 4 VRM boards since it also has a board made with 8, maybe the last one? )  so they play dumb about how the extra VRMs didn't mean anything..even though I post a picture of bertmod's firmware showing the voltage/amp difference all in one miner..

so yeah, that is why their hosting probably didn't get far early on too since that must of been a bake fest until they got .95 out the door to cool them down


tl;dr  they wouldn't flat ship without the fans/heatsinks/cases for those that asked but sure did rip out VRMs, etc and send you a case that overheats and fans that fly everywhere during shipping


happy mining!!!


  

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