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Author Topic: [Awesome Miner] - Powerful Windows GUI to manage and monitor up to 200000 miners  (Read 700866 times)
Dumpfdoesel
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August 04, 2017, 07:00:51 PM
 #1621

I am proposing some enhancements to AM:
  • Undo retirement of ccminer-1.5.81_1 (SP-Mod 1.5.81)
    It is much faster (3x!! on GTX 1080ti) on keccak, but useless on almost any other algo :-(
  • Option to start miner sw as window (as is) OR minimized
  • Option to specify any type of miner software, preferrably one per algo.
    Some miner sw is considerable faster on a specific algo than others (e.g.
     - For miner sw with cmdline switches the entire commandline should be configurable using variables:
        eg. "-a %ALGO% -i 31 -o %URL% -u %USER% -p x -b 0.0.0.0:4028 -x 1 -y 2 -z 3"
     - For miner sw using jason the jason file should be configurable using variables
  • Option to run two (or more) miner instances on the same GPU, but so that
    the miner sw does not get switched (when using profit switching) on all instances @ same time
    Instead there should be a delay before the miner sw gets switched on the next instance (to the now most profitable algo!).
    e.g.:
    1. switch miner sw / algo on first instance
    2. wait some time (configurable, e.g. 30 secs or 'profit switching interval / number of miner instances')
    3. update profit list and dermine most profitable algo
    4. on the next instance: if most profitable alto is different from the currently executed one then switch miner sw / algo
    5. loop to 2 ... next instance
    Why? I run two miner instances on the same GPU so I never loose hash time when swiching miner sw (e.g DAG preparation takes ages, before mining begins)
  • Cumulated summary per miner group
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August 04, 2017, 08:50:34 PM
 #1622

Hey Handsome,

Do you will update Claymore to 9.8 through Awesome Miner? It's been a few days...

I like the remote update.
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August 04, 2017, 09:15:19 PM
 #1623

After update to 3.2.1 Dev, executable wouldn't load, had to downgrade back to 3.2
any timeframe on the fix?
Please send me the log file (toolbar: Tools -> Log file, or in folder: %localappdata%\AwesomeMiner) and I will investigate why it failed to load for you.

Here, installed again 3.2.1 and same issue, would not load, uninstalled and reinstalled 3.2, works great.


Code:
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.862 [001] [S]Log Initiated
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.060 [001] [S]Mode: Non Portable mode
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.067 [001] [S]Loading configuration from: C:\Users\\AppData\Roaming\AwesomeMiner\ConfigData.xml
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.858 [001] [S]Starting Awesome Miner 3.2.1
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.859 [001] [S]Starting time UTC: 8/4/2017 9:09:54 PM
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.862 [001] [S]Process: 15588, Computer name: DELL, 64-bit OS: True, OS version: Microsoft Windows NT 6.2.9200.0, Is Admin: False
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.865 [001] [S]Found .NET versions: 15
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.865 [001] [S]Application folder: C:\Program Files (x86)\Awesome Miner
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.893 [001] [S]Initializing CoinStore
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.893 [001] [S]CoinStore, Loading from file
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.909 [001] [S]CoinStore, Preparing predefined coins
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.916 [001] [E]Unhandled Domain Exception
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.916 [001] [E]System.TypeInitializationException: The type initializer for 'AwesomeMiner.Components.Currency.CoinStore' threw an exception.
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.919 [001] [E]   at AwesomeMiner.Components.Currency.CoinStore..ctor()
   at AwesomeMiner.Components.AppContext.Init(String[] #=qx0bTbnwqZ2LRfi2aZaB9Ag==)
   at PE.Infrastructure.SingleInstanceManager.WindowsApplication.OnStartup(StartupEventArgs eventArgs)
   at Microsoft.VisualBasic.ApplicationServices.WindowsFormsApplicationBase.DoApplicationModel()
   at Microsoft.VisualBasic.ApplicationServices.WindowsFormsApplicationBase.Run(String[] commandLine)
   at PE.Infrastructure.SingleInstanceManager.Run(String[] args)
   at #=qSD_KajgNfjiAlJk8f$5DyrvzHLxAvWQaBhyPjyJWUd0=.#=qt9vz7HozWUlGaqy_bNqieg==(String[] #=qjtf_jjpjU6bHdZoje2eGrg==)
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.919 [001] [E]System.ArgumentException: An item with the same key has already been added.
8/4/2017 5:09:54 PM.920 [001] [E]   at System.ThrowHelper.ThrowArgumentException(ExceptionResource resource)
   at System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2.Insert(TKey key, TValue value, Boolean add)
   at AwesomeMiner.Components.Currency.CoinStore.#=qvLeON9KwrhY$9YuatMiwlNv777wrRpnc$55XoT6U3Hc=()
   at AwesomeMiner.Components.Currency.CoinStore..cctor()
patrike (OP)
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August 04, 2017, 10:22:06 PM
 #1624

Some possible issues concerning AM and profit switching on miningpoolhub when using auto exchange to some other coin.

I believe AM uses the BTC equivalent value with calculating highest profit coin at any particular time. On miningpoolhub, when using auto exchange to another coin, even when the auto exchanging to BTC, miningpoolhub has additional delays that has to be considered. Normally coins mines are initially unconfirmed, then confirmed; but with auto exchange they are then automatically place on the exchange to be converted to the desired coin, then finally deposited into the desired coin some time later. The more coins being auto exchanged, the faster this process completes. The time it takes for some coins to be exchanged can be very long if they have a very small balance because miningpoolhub bundles multiple small accounts of other miners together until there is enough to efficiently exchange them. I have seen small balances take days to exchange and of course the profit switching calculation will be completely off at that point because it was based in part on the BTC exchange rate at the time it was mined. On small mining rigs, profit switching to a coin that produces a small balance and then switches away too quickly is a problem because you can end up with such small coin balances on some coins that effectively never exchange until days or weeks later.

Setting AM to only switch once every several hours might partially resolve this issue, but is not optimal profit switching.

Can AM be told that any particular coin is set up as an auto exchange to another coin and then account for that by: 1) factoring in the conversion to the destination coin value when determining when to switch to that coin; 2) set that coin to always mine for a minimum duration (possibly) or minimum profit (best option) to improve the chance that there are enough coins to auto exchange quickly even if it would otherwise indicate that a profit switch is indicated. (i.e. a switch away from a low coin mining too quickly effectively reduces the profit of that coin to 0).

Example: Let's say I have SiaCoin set to auto exchange to ETH on miningpoolhub. I would like to be able to inform AM that I have this set and have it factor that into the profit calculation (i.e. consider the BTC/Day/GH/s factor by 0.5% loss for the auto exchange, or whatever). And also set SiaCoin so that when AM switches to it that it will mine it for at least enough to achieve some number of ETH, (i.e. 0.01 ETH) thereby practically guaranteeing that the auto exchange happens quickly.
These are good ideas for improving the profit switcher, but some of them will require quite some thinking and development effort to get right.

With the latest development release you can define a profit factor (1 = 100%, 0.995 = 99.5%) for per algorithm and per online service pool (nicehash, zpool, MPH). You define this in Options dialog, Online Services section.

Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners
Optimized Antminer firmware - Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+, S19, S19 Pro, S19j, S19j Pro, T19
Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web
patrike (OP)
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August 04, 2017, 10:26:16 PM
 #1625

Hey Handsome,

Do you will update Claymore to 9.8 through Awesome Miner? It's been a few days...

I like the remote update.
I've uploaded a new definition file for those running the development version. I will also release a new development version within the next 12h where it's included.

Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners
Optimized Antminer firmware - Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+, S19, S19 Pro, S19j, S19j Pro, T19
Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web
patrike (OP)
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August 04, 2017, 10:38:10 PM
 #1626

Here, installed again 3.2.1 and same issue, would not load, uninstalled and reinstalled 3.2, works great.
Many thanks for that information, I managed to find the issue. It's when you have a user defined algorithm with the same name as a predefined algorithm (for example you added Skein, but that one is already included).

A correction will be available in version 3.2.2 that is planned to be available within the next 12h.

Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners
Optimized Antminer firmware - Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+, S19, S19 Pro, S19j, S19j Pro, T19
Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web
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August 05, 2017, 12:03:47 AM
Last edit: August 05, 2017, 12:14:33 AM by toptek
 #1627

Quote
Those kind of proxy features at not available in Awesome Miner
I'm very a ware those features are not a part of Awesome miner it was more a suggestion/request then was it in Awesome miner , I know it's not.

 
Quote
AM Still sees my NV CARD As a AMD CARD if I mix cards , i said some thing about a while back to fix it, i don't mix cards .

Was this on the Systems tab for a Managed Miner you could see AMD, while you had nVidia GPU's only?

I only have one nVidia GPU so i took it out and put it in one of my gaming PC and now all the rigs that mine are AMD gpu. but here is the pictures again .

This one shows it is as AMD card forth one down .



and this one shows it in the map to system monitoring window as a nVidia GPU , I didn't bug you about it any more because I'm sure you have a lot to do an mainly to me it's not a big deal .




 and if i put it on slot 0 on the MB my AMD cards won't install the drivers right or load right.

For security, your account has been locked. Email acctcomp15@theymos.e4ward.com
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August 05, 2017, 12:39:11 AM
Last edit: August 05, 2017, 02:33:45 AM by xChackOx
 #1628

Hello!

AM isn't using some of my configured algorithms. Right now Skein in MiningPoolHub is supposed to the most profitable for me but AM doesn't have it in the profit switching list and it is enabled everywhere (main algos and switching profiles). Other algos are missing too.

https://i.imgur.com/8IgrOnC.jpg

Also, AM is duplicating worker names in the command line when using MiningPoolHub

https://i.imgur.com/9QxfE0u.jpg

EDIT: Just noticed that port for Siacoin is wrong. It's pointing to 17022 and the correct port is 20550 https://siacoin.miningpoolhub.com/
Now I'm wondering, what was ClaymoreDual actually mining at that port and where did all my SC balance go? O.o

EDIT2: NVM, Siacoin just appeared in my Balance.
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August 05, 2017, 05:55:33 AM
 #1629

Hey Patrike,

I seen your post that you had many good ideas on how to improve the software, maybe we should run a running tab of all the things planned to be adjusted or added so we can discuss them as a group to try and help you along with the brainstorming side of how to go about it better.

I am planning on doing some more videos, just waiting for the next update in hopes that it fixes some of the issues im having currently. I know you mentioned you were making some changes on a lot of the topics im getting to work 100% yet.

One feature i could use some help by either you or someone else in the community is how does one add coin balances into the software, i have tried so many different coins trying to get it to work based on the instructions on the site and they all come back as "update failed" this is not something that needs a dire fix, just looking for some assistance on how others got it to work... trying to make sure i know more about the software and how to get most of the features working before i go and post videos on how to do it all... for future peeps.

- GPUs Mining : 128 (Updated 3/7/18) // CPUs Mining : 19 (Updated 2/23/18)
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August 05, 2017, 07:08:13 AM
 #1630

Version 3.2.2 (Development preview of 3.3 - Not for production use)

Here are the changes, where the blue items have been added or updated since the last development release:

- More flexible algorithm configuration. New algorithms can be defined by user and configured for each mining software.
- More flexible Online Service and profit switching configuration
- Managed Software can be added and used by both Managed Miners and by the Managed Profit Switcher
- Profit switching improvements, including configuration to disable individual algorithms per pool and separate dual mining hashrates

- Web interface includes secondary hashrate if available, coin information in smart phone mode and corrections to notification display in multi-user environments
- HTTP API adds operations on single notifications and includes Group Id information for miners
- Custom e-mail address can be set for a notification action, to override the global e-mail address to send notifications to
- The coins listed with exchange rate in the statusbar can be customized
- Moved e-mail server configuration to a separate section in the Options dialog
- New algorithms added
- Antminer R1-LTC hashrate correction
- Display Claymore miner invalid shares as HW errors
- Claymore Ethereum Miner 9.8
- Correction of Block Explorer request for zcash for the Balance feature
- Ccminer 2.1 replaces older Ccminer SP-mod
- Corrections to SMTP library to support Office 365 accounts

Important: The Remote Agent must also be upgraded.

Development Previews can be enabled from the Options dialog, General section. Then Menu -> Check for updates. If you need access to the MSI files for manual installation:
http://www.awesomeminer.com/download/setupdev/AwesomeMiner.msi
http://www.awesomeminer.com/download/setupdev/AwesomeMinerRemoteAgent.msi

New guide on the web site about Managed Software:
http://www.awesomeminer.com/help/managedsoftware.aspx

Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners
Optimized Antminer firmware - Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+, S19, S19 Pro, S19j, S19j Pro, T19
Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web
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August 05, 2017, 08:06:17 AM
Last edit: August 05, 2017, 08:36:39 AM by slavadp1
 #1631

Prompt me please. After numerous updates, I have lost graph of the temperature. Is it just me such a situation or have all users on the free version?
https://i.imgur.com/QDZAo97.png
patrike (OP)
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August 05, 2017, 08:46:32 AM
 #1632

I am proposing some enhancements to AM:
First of all, thanks for all feedback. I will comment on some of the items below.

  • Undo retirement of ccminer-1.5.81_1 (SP-Mod 1.5.81)
    It is much faster (3x!! on GTX 1080ti) on keccak, but useless on almost any other algo :-(
  • Option to specify any type of miner software, preferrably one per algo.
    Some miner sw is considerable faster on a specific algo than others (e.g.
     - For miner sw with cmdline switches the entire commandline should be configurable using variables:
        eg. "-a %ALGO% -i 31 -o %URL% -u %USER% -p x -b 0.0.0.0:4028 -x 1 -y 2 -z 3"
There are already two ccminer versions included (2.1 and Alexis). In addition to that, you can still add you own Managed Software, where you can define that you want to use the old ccminer for Keccak only. With the Managed Software feature you can define which algorithms to use for each mining software.

Good suggestion about the variables, it could make sense for Generic Miner.

  • Option to run two (or more) miner instances on the same GPU, but so that
    the miner sw does not get switched (when using profit switching) on all instances @ same time
    Instead there should be a delay before the miner sw gets switched on the next instance (to the now most profitable algo!).
    e.g.:
    1. switch miner sw / algo on first instance
    2. wait some time (configurable, e.g. 30 secs or 'profit switching interval / number of miner instances')
    3. update profit list and dermine most profitable algo
    4. on the next instance: if most profitable alto is different from the currently executed one then switch miner sw / algo
    5. loop to 2 ... next instance
    Why? I run two miner instances on the same GPU so I never loose hash time when swiching miner sw (e.g DAG preparation takes ages, before mining begins)
This is a very specific scenario for the profit switcher. The original idea was to keep it as simple as possible in contrast to Managed Miners where you can do almost anything. I will see if I can figure something out to handle this scenario in a good way.

  • Cumulated summary per miner group
What is the information you would like to see here, and where should it be presented?

Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners
Optimized Antminer firmware - Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+, S19, S19 Pro, S19j, S19j Pro, T19
Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web
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August 05, 2017, 08:51:56 AM
 #1633

Hello!

AM isn't using some of my configured algorithms. Right now Skein in MiningPoolHub is supposed to the most profitable for me but AM doesn't have it in the profit switching list and it is enabled everywhere (main algos and switching profiles). Other algos are missing too.

Also, AM is duplicating worker names in the command line when using MiningPoolHub

Which version of Awesome Miner are you running. The latest public release (v3.2) or the latest development release? In the development release you can configure MiningPoolHub in the Options dialog, Online services, and select which algorithms to enable for the profit switcher. The latest version will also support custom mining software to be used together with the profit switcher (add a user defined Managed Software, and enable in in the Profit profile you use).

If you use the feature "Add to worker name" for a Managed Miner (or Managed Profit Miner), it will append this to the worker name defined for the pool or profit switcher. In the Profit switching section of the Options dialog, how did you enter the worker name for Mining Pool Hub? And how is the "Add to worker name" configured for your Managed Profit Miner?
More about worker names:
http://www.awesomeminer.com/help/workername.aspx

Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners
Optimized Antminer firmware - Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+, S19, S19 Pro, S19j, S19j Pro, T19
Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web
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August 05, 2017, 11:17:59 AM
 #1634

Hey Patrike,

I seen your post that you had many good ideas on how to improve the software, maybe we should run a running tab of all the things planned to be adjusted or added so we can discuss them as a group to try and help you along with the brainstorming side of how to go about it better.

I am planning on doing some more videos, just waiting for the next update in hopes that it fixes some of the issues im having currently. I know you mentioned you were making some changes on a lot of the topics im getting to work 100% yet.

One feature i could use some help by either you or someone else in the community is how does one add coin balances into the software, i have tried so many different coins trying to get it to work based on the instructions on the site and they all come back as "update failed" this is not something that needs a dire fix, just looking for some assistance on how others got it to work... trying to make sure i know more about the software and how to get most of the features working before i go and post videos on how to do it all... for future peeps.
Maybe something simlar to UserVoice would make sense, where everyone can create feature requests and then there is a discussion per request and other users can vote. The drawback is that you probably would have to sign up before getting involved in conversations, making it less attractive to many users.

Thanks for doing more video and trying out the new features.

The Balance feature is probably not as well documented as it should be. Awesome Miner can only get information from 7 sources right now, and the one with support for most coins is:
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/
In Awesome Miner you can enter the following for Dash as an example, in the "Block Explorer API Url" field.
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/api.dws

What I probably should do is to allow you enter any URL that returns a plain number with the current balance. Right now there is a behavior to follow the Bitcoin block explorer API if a custom URL is entered.

Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners
Optimized Antminer firmware - Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+, S19, S19 Pro, S19j, S19j Pro, T19
Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web
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August 05, 2017, 11:21:02 AM
 #1635

Prompt me please. After numerous updates, I have lost graph of the temperature. Is it just me such a situation or have all users on the free version?
This is not related to which version you are using. Temperatures should be displayed so this is probably a bug I need to look into.

Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners
Optimized Antminer firmware - Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+, S19, S19 Pro, S19j, S19j Pro, T19
Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web
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August 05, 2017, 11:57:17 AM
 #1636

Hi Patrike and thanks a lot for your work and the new versions Wink

I have a little problem with miningrigrentals.com

I don't understand why, in Online Services, the profit is so high.
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2017/31/6/1501934062-capture.png

When I connect my miner on miningrigrentals.com, I have this:
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2017/31/6/1501934062-capture2.png

It was about 38CHF and not 81CHF with stratum+tcp://mrr-pool:3333


In second, thanks to change the coins listed with exchange rate in the statusbar.
It would be perfect if we could add more.

Have a good day.
Jack
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August 05, 2017, 11:59:59 AM
 #1637

    First of all, thanks for all feedback.[...]
    You're welcome Smiley

    • Undo retirement of ccminer-1.5.81_1 (SP-Mod 1.5.81)
      It is much faster (3x!! on GTX 1080ti) on keccak, but useless on almost any other algo :-(
    • Option to specify any type of miner software, preferrably one per algo.
      Some miner sw is considerable faster on a specific algo than others (e.g.
       - For miner sw with cmdline switches the entire commandline should be configurable using variables:
          eg. "-a %ALGO% -i 31 -o %URL% -u %USER% -p x -b 0.0.0.0:4028 -x 1 -y 2 -z 3"
    There are already two ccminer versions included (2.1 and Alexis). In addition to that, you can still add you own Managed Software, where you can define that you want to use the old ccminer for Keccak only. With the Managed Software feature you can define which algorithms to use for each mining software.

    Since the 'own managed software' is working now in 3.2.2 I can add any miner sw. Just what the doctor ordered - thanks for that!

    Good suggestion about the variables, it could make sense for Generic Miner.
    I just love variables... Smiley


    • Option to run two (or more) miner instances on the same GPU, but so that
      the miner sw does not get switched (when using profit switching) on all instances @ same time
      Instead there should be a delay before the miner sw gets switched on the next instance (to the now most profitable algo!).
      e.g.:
      1. switch miner sw / algo on first instance
      2. wait some time (configurable, e.g. 30 secs or 'profit switching interval / number of miner instances')
      3. update profit list and dermine most profitable algo
      4. on the next instance: if most profitable alto is different from the currently executed one then switch miner sw / algo
      5. loop to 2 ... next instance
      Why? I run two miner instances on the same GPU so I never loose hash time when swiching miner sw (e.g DAG preparation takes ages, before mining begins)
    This is a very specific scenario for the profit switcher. The original idea was to keep it as simple as possible in contrast to Managed Miners where you can do almost anything. I will see if I can figure something out to handle this scenario in a good way.
    A simple configurable delay and re-evaluation of most profitable miner before switching algo would do nicely.

    • Cumulated summary per miner group
    What is the information you would like to see here, and where should it be presented?
    Basically the same as if only one instance was selected (e.g. revenue, avg. hashrates)
    mjmeans
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    August 05, 2017, 01:00:01 PM
     #1638

    With the latest development release you can define a profit factor (1 = 100%, 0.995 = 99.5%) for per algorithm and per online service pool (nicehash, zpool, MPH). You define this in Options dialog, Online Services section.


    The difficulty factor is also important. So I think the profit factor should be per pool-algo-coin combination, not per algo or pool separately.
    slavadp1
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    August 05, 2017, 01:01:48 PM
     #1639

    Prompt me please. After numerous updates, I have lost graph of the temperature. Is it just me such a situation or have all users on the free version?
    This is not related to which version you are using. Temperatures should be displayed so this is probably a bug I need to look into.
    Please tell us when will fix the bug, or will it be in the next update?
    Dumpfdoesel
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    August 05, 2017, 01:18:39 PM
     #1640

    Just noticed a nasty bug in 3.2.2:

    Main / Balance - click on 'Update now' -> will stay grayed out...  Huh
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