[1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]

[SgtSpike]

Did you really wish to contend that *any* computer will in today's environment make more in BTC than the electricity cost when CPU mining?

Of course not. It's just there so it is possible to see what bitcoin mining is like even if you don't (yet) have the hardware to do it profitably.

For cgminer they chose to force beginners to compile the miner themselves if they want to test mining on a CPU. And most beginners don't know what "compile" even means.
...

So ... where is this rubbish you've stated as truth, that is in fact false, taken from?

Anyone who asks for information about CPU mining on cgminer is told that it is not supported and to not discuss the subject.
Even the cgminer README says it is not supported (and has for 1 year)
We don't want anyone to do CPU mining no matter how new to bitcoind (or stupid) they are.
None of the binaries we release allow CPU mining.

I use it on rare occasions in development to test run multiple cgminers - but it only takes a couple of minutes running on my desktop to shutdown my CPU due to overheating - so my test runs including CPU mining are usually quite short.

ckolivas did once completely remove it in a branch, but didn't end up putting it into the master (I can't remember why) but was probably due to being useful for code testing during development.

I chose a solution that made the most sense to me.

Really?
Offering CPU mining to people who are most likely ignorant of the stupidity of doing it ... makes the most sense?
Go figure.

Maybe you don't see it kano, but you're really starting to sound like the overbearing governments most of us are trying to avoid.  Protecting stupid people from making their own stupid decisions is exactly why we have so many dang laws and regulations around everything in the first place.  Let people have the freedom to make their own choices.  Let people mine with their CPU if they want.  Let DrHaribo give people the freedom to mine with their CPU if they want.  It is their choice, not yours.

Umm... I don't see Kano suggesting we make it illegal, with fines paid in BTC, for making a miner available that uses CPU.  He's just pointing out that it doesn't make sense mine with a CPU cost wise.  Some people here might not know that.

M

Kano is asking DrHaribo to remove the feature, which would limit the freedom of people to CPU mine if they wish to CPU mine.  Kind of like the government makes laws to try and protect stupid people from themselves which also limit the freedom of people.

If your purpose is to mine with a CPU for profit, then no, it doesn't make sense.  However, even kano himself just admitted that he does short testing runs with CPU mining.  Why remove the option and not let other people do CPU mining if they want?  Kano is essentially saying that what is good for him (CPU mining) isn't good for anyone else, and shouldn't be available to anyone else.  In my opinion, that is an absurd viewpoint.  There are a variety of reasons for a person to mine Bitcoins, and only one of those is for profit.  Others might include testing, experimenting, or educating.

[1714170598]

1714170598

[kano]

...
Kano is asking DrHaribo to remove the feature, which would limit the freedom of people to CPU mine if they wish to CPU mine.  Kind of like the government makes laws to try and protect stupid people from themselves which also limit the freedom of people.

If your purpose is to mine with a CPU for profit, then no, it doesn't make sense.  However, even kano himself just admitted that he does short testing runs with CPU mining.  Why remove the option and not let other people do CPU mining if they want?  Kano is essentially saying that what is good for him (CPU mining) isn't good for anyone else, and shouldn't be available to anyone else.  In my opinion, that is an absurd viewpoint.  There are a variety of reasons for a person to mine Bitcoins, and only one of those is for profit.  Others might include testing, experimenting, or educating.

Actually if you bothered to read what I said ... yeah that may be a little difficult when your opinion is so ridiculous and biased ... I said

...
Then hopefully it pops up a message telling everyone that they are losing money by pressing that CPU button ...
Since there are "plenty of newcomers" that use the miner.

Myself, I will not run a closed source, obfuscated, java code miner when I have access to a free open source miner with nothing hidden.
Too risky IMO.

[mdude77]

Did you really wish to contend that *any* computer will in today's environment make more in BTC than the electricity cost when CPU mining?

Of course not. It's just there so it is possible to see what bitcoin mining is like even if you don't (yet) have the hardware to do it profitably.

For cgminer they chose to force beginners to compile the miner themselves if they want to test mining on a CPU. And most beginners don't know what "compile" even means.
...

So ... where is this rubbish you've stated as truth, that is in fact false, taken from?

Anyone who asks for information about CPU mining on cgminer is told that it is not supported and to not discuss the subject.
Even the cgminer README says it is not supported (and has for 1 year)
We don't want anyone to do CPU mining no matter how new to bitcoind (or stupid) they are.
None of the binaries we release allow CPU mining.

I use it on rare occasions in development to test run multiple cgminers - but it only takes a couple of minutes running on my desktop to shutdown my CPU due to overheating - so my test runs including CPU mining are usually quite short.

ckolivas did once completely remove it in a branch, but didn't end up putting it into the master (I can't remember why) but was probably due to being useful for code testing during development.

I chose a solution that made the most sense to me.

Really?
Offering CPU mining to people who are most likely ignorant of the stupidity of doing it ... makes the most sense?
Go figure.

Maybe you don't see it kano, but you're really starting to sound like the overbearing governments most of us are trying to avoid.  Protecting stupid people from making their own stupid decisions is exactly why we have so many dang laws and regulations around everything in the first place.  Let people have the freedom to make their own choices.  Let people mine with their CPU if they want.  Let DrHaribo give people the freedom to mine with their CPU if they want.  It is their choice, not yours.

Umm... I don't see Kano suggesting we make it illegal, with fines paid in BTC, for making a miner available that uses CPU.  He's just pointing out that it doesn't make sense mine with a CPU cost wise.  Some people here might not know that.

M

Kano is asking DrHaribo to remove the feature, which would limit the freedom of people to CPU mine if they wish to CPU mine.  Kind of like the government makes laws to try and protect stupid people from themselves which also limit the freedom of people.

If your purpose is to mine with a CPU for profit, then no, it doesn't make sense.  However, even kano himself just admitted that he does short testing runs with CPU mining.  Why remove the option and not let other people do CPU mining if they want?  Kano is essentially saying that what is good for him (CPU mining) isn't good for anyone else, and shouldn't be available to anyone else.  In my opinion, that is an absurd viewpoint.  There are a variety of reasons for a person to mine Bitcoins, and only one of those is for profit.  Others might include testing, experimenting, or educating.

He's suggesting.  Nothing else.  Not demanding.  Not filing a class action lawsuit.  Suggesting.  Doc is free to ignore or take his suggestion as he wishes.

I'm against government strongarming as much as anyone.  But this is not that.

M

[Turbor]

No one here needs his suggestions. He's acting like an arrogant fuck using every chance to piss Docs legs. Who needs that shit ?

[mdude77]

No one here needs his suggestions. He's acting like an arrogant fuck using every chance to piss Docs legs. Who needs that shit ?

If someone offends someone else, it's probably because there's some truth to the matter.  I didn't see him as arrogant, why did you?

Last I checked it's still a somewhat free world.  No need to take things so personal.

M

[PsychoticBoy]

Some people are just annoying 

[Turbor]

Keep trolling, I keep mining

[SgtSpike]

...
Kano is asking DrHaribo to remove the feature, which would limit the freedom of people to CPU mine if they wish to CPU mine.  Kind of like the government makes laws to try and protect stupid people from themselves which also limit the freedom of people.

If your purpose is to mine with a CPU for profit, then no, it doesn't make sense.  However, even kano himself just admitted that he does short testing runs with CPU mining.  Why remove the option and not let other people do CPU mining if they want?  Kano is essentially saying that what is good for him (CPU mining) isn't good for anyone else, and shouldn't be available to anyone else.  In my opinion, that is an absurd viewpoint.  There are a variety of reasons for a person to mine Bitcoins, and only one of those is for profit.  Others might include testing, experimenting, or educating.

Actually if you bothered to read what I said ... yeah that may be a little difficult when your opinion is so ridiculous and biased ... I said

...
Then hopefully it pops up a message telling everyone that they are losing money by pressing that CPU button ...
Since there are "plenty of newcomers" that use the miner.

Myself, I will not run a closed source, obfuscated, java code miner when I have access to a free open source miner with nothing hidden.
Too risky IMO.

Why do you believe I have a biased opinion?  Who has biased me, and how/why?

Sure you said that bit about a message popping up (which I believe is a good idea, and which DrHaribo seems to have vaguely implied he has implemented), but then you follow it up with the post I quoted, stating that DrHaribo's choice to leave the CPU miner in didn't make sense, that we don't want CPU miners (who is "we", and how do you know they all agree with you?), and that what DrHaribo said is false (how is it? It seems a user would have to compile it themselves if they wanted to CPU mine).  I felt it prudent to follow up with support as to why CPU mining can be appropriate in some cases.  One particularly relevant case would be someone experimenting with Bitcoin mining who doesn't have a GPU capable of mining.

I don't think whichever miner you choose to run is relevant to the conversation.

[kano]

...
Kano is asking DrHaribo to remove the feature, which would limit the freedom of people to CPU mine if they wish to CPU mine.  Kind of like the government makes laws to try and protect stupid people from themselves which also limit the freedom of people.

If your purpose is to mine with a CPU for profit, then no, it doesn't make sense.  However, even kano himself just admitted that he does short testing runs with CPU mining.  Why remove the option and not let other people do CPU mining if they want?  Kano is essentially saying that what is good for him (CPU mining) isn't good for anyone else, and shouldn't be available to anyone else.  In my opinion, that is an absurd viewpoint.  There are a variety of reasons for a person to mine Bitcoins, and only one of those is for profit.  Others might include testing, experimenting, or educating.

Actually if you bothered to read what I said ... yeah that may be a little difficult when your opinion is so ridiculous and biased ... I said

...
Then hopefully it pops up a message telling everyone that they are losing money by pressing that CPU button ...
Since there are "plenty of newcomers" that use the miner.

Myself, I will not run a closed source, obfuscated, java code miner when I have access to a free open source miner with nothing hidden.
Too risky IMO.

Why do you believe I have a biased opinion?  Who has biased me, and how/why?

You have a ridiculous opinion because you have attempted to tum my comment

... Sigh ...

Into

limit the freedom of people

You have a biased opinion because you ignored my comment that clearly stated

...
Then hopefully it pops up a message telling everyone that they are losing money by pressing that CPU button ...
Since there are "plenty of newcomers" that use the miner.

Bias:
Statistics. a systematic as opposed to a random distortion of a statistic as a result of sampling procedure.

Your sampling ignored something that made your argument invalid.

Sure you said that bit about a message popping up (which I believe is a good idea, and which DrHaribo seems to have vaguely implied he has implemented), but then you follow it up with the post I quoted, stating that DrHaribo's choice to leave the CPU miner in didn't make sense, that we don't want CPU miners (who is "we", and how do you know they all agree with you?), and that what DrHaribo said is false (how is it? It seems a user would have to compile it themselves if they wanted to CPU mine).  I felt it prudent to follow up with support as to why CPU mining can be appropriate in some cases.  One particularly relevant case would be someone experimenting with Bitcoin mining who doesn't have a GPU capable of mining.

As I made quite clear IMO - it didn't make sense to me.

...

I chose a solution that made the most sense to me.

Really?
Offering CPU mining to people who are most likely ignorant of the stupidity of doing it ... makes the most sense?
Go figure.

As for "we" I am referring to ckolivas and myself - no one else.

I don't think whichever miner you choose to run is relevant to the conversation.

It is when DrHaribo says:

...
Why don't you try it and find out? Or are you just here for the trolling?

I explained why I wouldn't run it.
Though I guess I could look through the java code for a message about CPU mining ... though the obfuscation makes that slightly more cumbersome to do.

[SgtSpike]

Sounds like I misunderstood portions of your post, certainly.

I simply do not wish to see the CPU miner removed from BitMinter is all.  I think it is a good feature and a necessary tool for newbies.

[hahahafr]

pool down

[thph]

working now - was a short break

[WhitePhantom]

working now - was a short break

Yup, I made a whole 4 bitcents on my backup at BTC Guild.

[DrHaribo]

Dang it. It was only a few seconds of downtime. I can't get away with anything anymore. 

[AfricanHunter]

pressing button doesnt do anything. Have to exit client and start it again (only way to get it working). Have had same thing couple of times under win 8 beta comp. This one was win 7. What version it has dont know right now, prolly the one that was out 3 months ago Can check if needed.

That sounds like the Java bug I added a workaround for in the new beta. You may want to upgrade your java to the latest release to make sure it won't happen again.

Also, I need more feedback from BFL miners before I can release 1.3.1. Hint, hint owners of BFL FPGAs

I am running the new beta 1.3.1beta2 on a 7970 and bfl single. Just turned it up but so far so good. Is a couple mhash faster too; previously I was getting 8 mhash under the driver I ran (so 808mhash firmware would run at 800 on bitminter) but now it is 5-6 mhash less instead of 8. The 7970 seems faster too but could be my imagination as gpu tends to fluctuate quite a bit more than the fpga.

Windows 7 64 bit running latest java 7 update 11

Will let you know if I have any issues and post this on your software thread.

[kano]

808Mh/s takes 5.31555s to hash a nonce range.
Each block (on average) you will lose half a nonce range ... if the code is optimal - i.e. if it aborts the nonce range when an LP arrives and throws away the work - without counting it since it can't be counted.
Thus 2.65888s
Thus 0.4430% of 10 minutes
and 0.4430% of 808Mh/s is 3.58Mh/s
So the max average expected hash rate is a bit over 804MH/s
So assuming the reported number is accurate - it's not far off ...

[kano]

Dang it. It was only a few seconds of downtime. I can't get away with anything anymore.  

Yeah that's a (minor) issue with all implementations of Stratum so far also.
Everyone's miner will notice a server restart since it's a constant TCP/IP connection.

cgminer currently throws away any work when the stratum connection is lost since no pools will accept the old work
(as I mentioned at OzCoin)
It's not much of an issue for anyone with a reliable internet connection, but for someone with an unreliable internet connection it can lose a noticeable number of shares.

Most stratum pools should be only losing something like a few shares a day (or something like 0.05% or less) for each miner, but with an unreliable internet connection on stratum, that can become multiple times as many rejects (though of course it's still way less than GetWork or GBT)

[DrHaribo]

I am running the new beta 1.3.1beta2 on a 7970 and bfl single. Just turned it up but so far so good. Is a couple mhash faster too; previously I was getting 8 mhash under the driver I ran (so 808mhash firmware would run at 800 on bitminter) but now it is 5-6 mhash less instead of 8. The 7970 seems faster too but could be my imagination as gpu tends to fluctuate quite a bit more than the fpga.

Windows 7 64 bit running latest java 7 update 11

Will let you know if I have any issues and post this on your software thread.

That's what I like to hear! Thanks for testing. Looks like 1.3.1 will soon be ready.

Each block (on average) you will lose half a nonce range ... if the code is optimal - i.e. if it aborts the nonce range when an LP arrives and throws away the work - without counting it since it can't be counted.

Yes, with every block change it aborts the current work. And the already processed hashes that are thrown away are not counted towards the hashrate. So at every block change you can see a dip in the hashrate. That can be a little confusing for some users, but it's a result of how the BFL FPGAs work.

[AfricanHunter]

Stable for last 24ish hours

[AfricanHunter]

Been totally stable since my first post.

Doc, if you want my email so you can email me to test new versions drop me a message. I have bfl ASIC's on preorder as well.