Bitcoin Forum
March 19, 2024, 09:09:52 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 26.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Warning: One or more bitcointalk.org users have reported that they strongly believe that the creator of this topic is a scammer. (Login to see the detailed trust ratings.) While the bitcointalk.org administration does not verify such claims, you should proceed with extreme caution.
Pages: « 1 ... 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 [347] 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 ... 2137 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3049421 times)
klee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 23, 2013, 01:23:30 PM
 #6921


We should ALL be worry except Knc, because they already has our money. With No Updates by this week we should really be concern as to where the heck is the 28nm Chips?

Where are the freaking chip.  Grin  Should we Go for Refund.?

A Chicken without a head would go no where, the chip is the brain for our bitcoin miner.


You avoided my question in a previous post or missed it...

EDIT: But just remembered you actually answered it later to another post replying to someone else for the same issue so nevermind!
1710839392
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710839392

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710839392
Reply with quote  #2

1710839392
Report to moderator
1710839392
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710839392

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710839392
Reply with quote  #2

1710839392
Report to moderator
BitcoinCleanup.com: Learn why Bitcoin isn't bad for the environment
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
crumbs
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100



View Profile
August 23, 2013, 01:27:47 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2013, 01:55:33 PM by crumbs
 #6922

...

a bitcoin price spike.

Better, but unless you mine more bitcoins than you would have, had if you bought bitcoins directly instead of buying a miner?  Another fail.



This is the most repeated snobbish falsehood on bitcointalk

Tell me where you can easily buy bitcoins with a credit card to the same extent that you can buy a miner?   If you could, what are the fees involved?

add that all up (if possible) and give me the bottom line comparison


And I won't even bring up the 'virgin coins' angle where there are people that will accept half ROI to make their own coins if you know what I mean

If you you wish to account for the difficulty of converting fiat into bitcoins, i suggest you also account for the difficulty of converting those bitcoins into fiat.
If you could, what are the fees, risks, delays, disparities between exchanges, tightening regulations etc?
Add that all up (if possible) and give me the bottom line comparison.

Thank you for focusing on just one of the six arguments i presented.  I assume you're fine with the rest.

Edit:  People are willing to pay 50% moar for clean coins?  UR kidding?  What fresh new level of money-laundering ineptitude is this? Cheesy
gkm22d
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 01:52:46 PM
 #6923

If you were going to mine to launder money, wouldn't you have to launder the money to buy the mining hardware?
Craziest reason to mine ever. Also, lacks understanding of IRS.
Ytterbium
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile WWW
August 23, 2013, 01:55:10 PM
 #6924

If you were going to mine to launder money, wouldn't you have to launder the money to buy the mining hardware?
Craziest reason to mine ever. Also, lacks understanding of IRS.

No, because there's no link between the mining hardware and the coins mined.  A new coin is a new coin.  There's no trace of who mined it.

However.

If you're mining on a pool the pool could keep a record of your IP and associate your address with the IP you were using to mine from. You could use TOR, but isn't it likely that most of the TOR exit nodes are run by the NSA anyway?

The only way to get totally untraceable coins is to solo mine, which is pretty risky.

klee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 23, 2013, 01:58:53 PM
 #6925

If you were going to mine to launder money, wouldn't you have to launder the money to buy the mining hardware?
Craziest reason to mine ever. Also, lacks understanding of IRS.

No, because there's no link between the mining hardware and the coins mined.  A new coin is a new coin.  There's no trace of who mined it.

However.

If you're mining on a pool the pool could keep a record of your IP and associate your address with the IP you were using to mine from. You could use TOR, but isn't it likely that most of the TOR exit nodes are run by the NSA anyway?

The only way to get totally untraceable coins is to solo mine, which is pretty risky.
Even solo is not anonymous...check AnonyMint's posts if you like, especially one in the Newbies section.
gkm22d
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
 #6926

If you were going to mine to launder money, wouldn't you have to launder the money to buy the mining hardware?
Craziest reason to mine ever. Also, lacks understanding of IRS.

No, because there's no link between the mining hardware and the coins mined.  A new coin is a new coin.  There's no trace of who mined it.

However.

If you're mining on a pool the pool could keep a record of your IP and associate your address with the IP you were using to mine from. You could use TOR, but isn't it likely that most of the TOR exit nodes are run by the NSA anyway?

The only way to get totally untraceable coins is to solo mine, which is pretty risky.

But then you don't have laundered money, you have "clean coins" but you still don't have an explanation for where it came for, which I believe is the main point of money laundering. You want a valid, legal source for that money, I don't see how mining does this, it certainly makes it less traceable though.
sickpig
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:09:47 PM
 #6927


The only way to get totally untraceable coins is to solo mine, which is pretty risky.

But then you don't have laundered money, you have "clean coins" but you still don't have an explanation for where it came for, which I believe is the main point of money laundering. You want a valid, legal source for that money, I don't see how mining does this, it certainly makes it less traceable though.

mmm can't parse this last sentence, I dunno about legality but speaking of validity this [1] plus a little bit of economic theory should suffice, doesn't it?

[1] http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf


Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
gkm22d
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:21:13 PM
 #6928


The only way to get totally untraceable coins is to solo mine, which is pretty risky.

But then you don't have laundered money, you have "clean coins" but you still don't have an explanation for where it came for, which I believe is the main point of money laundering. You want a valid, legal source for that money, I don't see how mining does this, it certainly makes it less traceable though.

mmm can't parse this last sentence, I dunno about legality but speaking of validity this [1] plus a little bit of economic theory should suffice, doesn't it?

[1] http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf



If you are saying that you can take illegal money, buy mining hardware with it and then suddenly the mined coins are going to be completely untainted in the eyes of the law, I believe you are wrong.
tunctioncloud
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 440
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:23:26 PM
 #6929

Where are the freaking chip.  Grin  Should we Go for Refund.?

of course, you can ask for refund anytime before day of shipment.

You mean before estimated month of shipment or before real day of shipment ?
sickpig
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:24:44 PM
 #6930


The only way to get totally untraceable coins is to solo mine, which is pretty risky.

But then you don't have laundered money, you have "clean coins" but you still don't have an explanation for where it came for, which I believe is the main point of money laundering. You want a valid, legal source for that money, I don't see how mining does this, it certainly makes it less traceable though.

mmm can't parse this last sentence, I dunno about legality but speaking of validity this [1] plus a little bit of economic theory should suffice, doesn't it?

[1] http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf



If you are saying that you can take illegal money, buy mining hardware with it and then suddenly the mined coins are going to be completely untainted in the eyes of the law, I believe you are wrong.


oooops sorry now I got what you were saying, I've simply miss the premise: miner bought using illegal money, sorry for the noise.  

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
Ytterbium
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile WWW
August 23, 2013, 02:27:59 PM
 #6931

If you were going to mine to launder money, wouldn't you have to launder the money to buy the mining hardware?
Craziest reason to mine ever. Also, lacks understanding of IRS.

No, because there's no link between the mining hardware and the coins mined.  A new coin is a new coin.  There's no trace of who mined it.

However.

If you're mining on a pool the pool could keep a record of your IP and associate your address with the IP you were using to mine from. You could use TOR, but isn't it likely that most of the TOR exit nodes are run by the NSA anyway?

The only way to get totally untraceable coins is to solo mine, which is pretty risky.

But then you don't have laundered money, you have "clean coins" but you still don't have an explanation for where it came for, which I believe is the main point of money laundering. You want a valid, legal source for that money, I don't see how mining does this, it certainly makes it less traceable though.

Since when is mining not a "valid, legal source"?

Actually - I was only thinking about someone who wanted to buy illegal stuff.  So, if you want to buy something off silkroad, or donate to wikileaks and don't want any way for the coins to be traced back to you.  

However, you got coins buy selling something illegal, and don't want to see those coins used to find out who you are (by loading them into MtGox, for example) then you could buy a miner and then use the miner to generate clean coins.

I hadn't thought about that "use case" until just now.

And yeah, it's true you wouldn't have an explanation for how you were able to afford the miner,  And if the government was investigating you they could go to the mining company and ask for the TXID used to purchase the miner and start tracing back the transactions and IPs involved.

However, it would make things much more difficult to trace overall. You could mine on address A, transfer a little bit to address B and then spend that.  No one would know that address A belonged to you - they would only know that A sent btc to you.  They wouldn't know why.

But, let's imagine you're a government Agent.   You think bitcoin user X has a bank deposit that you think is suspicious.   Think about all the steps you have to go through to track the person down.

1) Look at the bank transactions and see it was from an exchange
2) Go to the exchange and see what address the coins came from
3) Look up the address and see where the coins came from, see the address you mine from.
4) Supena the mining pool for the IP address used to mine. Okay, what if your mining over a VPN or tor? Lets say you do all the work to track down the originating IP address (Maybe the NSA stores a record of all consumer IP traffic in their yottabyte data center.  You look up the time stamps and see if bitcoin user X was online at the time, and sending traffic 'consistent' with bitcoin mining.  You can really only do this because you're looking at a specific person)

5) Okay step 5 you see what IP address was doing the mining based on guessing from tor "timing".
6) you get the physical address where the mining took place from
7) If the machines are still there, you can find out what company sent them.
8] Do the machines even have serial numbers?  Avalons don't, as far as I know.  maybe some of it does.
9) Okay, so you take the serial number and you find out who the company sold it too - oops someone totally different since you bought this machine online
10) Okay so you track down the person who sold the machine to user X and get the TX id used to buy the miner from them. If they even kept records.

Aaaaaaaanyway, you see how much work this is and why the government wouldn't bother except in extreme cases. It wouldn't be perfectly anonymous... but whatever.

gooryheta
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 167
Merit: 10



View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:32:26 PM
 #6932

But then you don't have laundered money, you have "clean coins" but you still don't have an explanation for where it came for, which I believe is the main point of money laundering. You want a valid, legal source for that money, I don't see how mining does this, it certainly makes it less traceable though.

"clean coins" comes from mining.

    __                 ☆☆☆ TrustedCar Flex │ Changing Car Ownership Forever ☆☆☆                  __
‗/l__l\__                                 Token Sale June up to 30% Bonus                               __/l__l\‗
╘Θ═╧═Θ.╛   WhitepaperLightpaperANN ThreadFacebookTwitterTelegram   ╘.Θ═╧═Θ╛
gkm22d
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
 #6933

Perhaps a better example is in order.

Imagine you are a meth dealer from new mexico. You have $250,000 cash. You use that cash to buy mining equipment, which earns you $250,000 worth of bitcoins.

Can you now go to a car dealership and buy a new ford mustang? Can you buy a house? No, because now instead of being a meth dealer with $250,000 cash, you are a meth dealer with $250,000 of bitcoins. I don't see any problems solved here, except for the fact that the bitcoins are a lot harder to take away.

Oh and I don't think the police would bother with IP addresses and the like, they will just catch you selling meth, see that you had no legal source of money to buy the mining equipment, and take that, and anything you would have bought with the bitcoins.
Cablez
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400
Merit: 1000


I owe my soul to the Bitcoin code...


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:49:55 PM
 #6934

Even mining from pools may not be 'clean coins', think about GPUMAX run by our friend Trendon. You can never really tell where all the coins come from.

The only clean coins to be found are those solo mined and that requires ridiculous hash rate for less variance a.k.a. large investment.

Tired of substandard power distribution in your ASIC setup???   Chris' Custom Cablez will get you sorted out right!  No job too hard so PM me for a quote
Check my products or ask a question here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74397.0
gkm22d
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:54:03 PM
 #6935

Even mining from pools may not be 'clean coins', think about GPUMAX run by our friend Trendon. You can never really tell where all the coins come from.

The only clean coins to be found are those solo mined and that requires ridiculous hash rate for less variance a.k.a. large investment.

And even those coins have a date attached to them so it would be easy to figure out the kind of resources that went into mining them.
ridnovir
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 31
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:55:13 PM
 #6936

It is Friday Aug 23 do you know were your kncs are?
-Redacted-
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574
Merit: 501


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 02:58:44 PM
 #6937

It is Friday Aug 23 do you know were your kncs are?

Yes - about 4 weeks away - in September...
timmmers
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 265



View Profile
August 23, 2013, 03:03:29 PM
 #6938

Perhaps a better example is in order.

Imagine you are a meth dealer from new mexico. You have $250,000 cash. You use that cash to buy mining equipment, which earns you $250,000 worth of bitcoins.

Can you now go to a car dealership and buy a new ford mustang? Can you buy a house? No, because now instead of being a meth dealer with $250,000 cash, you are a meth dealer with $250,000 of bitcoins. I don't see any problems solved here, except for the fact that the bitcoins are a lot harder to take away.

Oh and I don't think the police would bother with IP addresses and the like, they will just catch you selling meth, see that you had no legal source of money to buy the mining equipment, and take that, and anything you would have bought with the bitcoins.

What about this meth dealer buying a shitload of mining rigs, then setting up a lovely cloudhashing sideline? The fees would be clean money from clients. He could also BE his own fake clients or at least mine for himself. He could also set it up somewhere safe from interference in a country where the agencies likely to be on his case have no powers.

As for tracing BTC, go on then..someone tell me how much I have in my wallets or where it/they are? I doubt that will be easy.


             ▄▄▄▄▄▄
         ▄▄███▀▀▀▀███▄▄
      ▄██▀▀          ▀▀██▄
     ██▀       ██       ▀██
    ██        ██          ██
   ██        ██   ██       ██
  ▐█▌       ██ ▄▄▄ ██      ▐█▌
  ██       ██  ███  ██      ██
  ▐█▌     ██         ██    ▐█▌
   ██    ██           ██   ██
    ██  ▀▀             ▀▀ ██
     ██▄                ▄██
      ▀██▄▄          ▄▄██▀
         ▀▀███▄▄▄▄███▀▀
             ▀▀▀▀▀▀
.Akoin













.ONE AFRICA. ONE KOIN..

█▀▀











█▄▄

▀▀█











▄▄█

█▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█
█  ██████    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█  ██████    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█  ██████    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█            ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█                     █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄              █
█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█













.TELEGRAM
gkm22d
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 03:13:17 PM
 #6939

What about this meth dealer buying a shitload of mining rigs, then setting up a lovely cloudhashing sideline? The fees would be clean money from clients. He could also BE his own fake clients or at least mine for himself. He could also set it up somewhere safe from interference in a country where the agencies likely to be on his case have no powers.

As for tracing BTC, go on then..someone tell me how much I have in my wallets or where it/they are? I doubt that will be easy.

I think the cloudhashing is getting into the idea of money laundering a little bit,but where did the money for the hardware come from in the first place?
As for tracing btc goes, I don't have the resources of law enforcement. If I did, I think the process would be trivial.

One of the only ways I can think of laundering money with bitcoins, that would truly be laundering them, would be to buy coins that haven't moved in ages, like since they were $10.  Then you could say you were just moving coins to another wallet, and would only need a legit source for 10% of the money.
KS
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 23, 2013, 04:04:46 PM
 #6940

While it is true that a B2B contract may not take away all of the consumer protection that would apply to a B2C contract, it does take away considerable portions of it, such as the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which do not apply to B2B contracts. The Distance Selling Regulations would also not apply.
And, in general, when interpreting B2B contracts, courts will take the view that each side has received appropriate advice, and negotiated a contract that matches their wishes, while with a standard fixed B2C contract that the consumer does not have the opportunity to negotiate, they will recognise the imbalance of arms, and construe all terms in a way that favours the consumer.

While it is true that a B2B contract may not take away all of the consumer protection that would apply to a B2C contract, it does take away considerable portions of it, such as the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which do not apply to B2B contracts. The Distance Selling Regulations would also not apply.
And, in general, when interpreting B2B contracts, courts will take the view that each side has received appropriate advice, and negotiated a contract that matches their wishes, while with a standard fixed B2C contract that the consumer does not have the opportunity to negotiate, they will recognise the imbalance of arms, and construe all terms in a way that favours the consumer.

Thank-you Murray.

Quote
Business to business sales, are consumer rights applicable? (Note: this is UK focused)

In short, yes, unless the company you are dealing with has specifically underwritten terms in their Terms and Conditions negating aspects of your consumer rights. This is known as an exclusion clause, and is yet another reason why Terms and Conditions should always be read and thoroughly discussed in your respective thread.

Quote
How do you know if the contract (business to business) takes away your statutory rights?

If the person who sold you the goods or services has taken away your statutory rights, there should be something in your contract about this. For example, it might say  the seller isn't responsible for goods that are unsatisfactory, don't match their description or aren't fit for purpose. Or it might say that the seller isn't responsible for any loss you've suffered because of their lack of care or skill. This type of content in a contract is called an exclusion clause.


http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm

In particular, sections 10 and 11 of the Distance Selling Regulations, which would otherwise have given an absolute right to cancel, will not apply to a pre-order written as a B2B contract rather than a B2C one. In the particular field of Bitcoin ASIC miner pre-orders, I think that is quite a significant loss!

Edit: If by repeating that quote, you intend to imply that there is no loss of protection, you are simply wrong.

From the Distance Selling Regulations:
Quote
consumer” means any natural person who, in contracts to which these Regulations apply, is acting for purposes which are outside his business;
[...]
Right to cancel
10.—(1) Subject to regulation 13, if within the cancellation period set out in regulations 11 and 12, the consumer gives a notice of cancellation to the supplier, or any other person previously notified by the supplier to the consumer as a person to whom notice of cancellation may be given, the notice of cancellation shall operate to cancel the contract.
(2) Except as otherwise provided by these Regulations, the effect of a notice of cancellation is that the contract shall be treated as if it had not been made.

This simply does not apply to businesses.

Similarly for the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations:
Quote
What terms are not covered?

Most standard terms are covered by the UTCCRs. The exceptions are those:

    that reflect provisions which by law have to be included in contracts
    that have been individually negotiated
    in contracts between businesses
    in contracts between private individuals
    in certain contracts that people do not make as consumers – for example, relating to employment or setting up a business
    in contracts entered into before 1995.

And, from the OFTs guidance on the UTCCR:
Quote
The fact that certain customers – even a majority – are not consumers does not justify exclusion of liability that could affect consumers. However, there is no objection under the Regulations to terms which cannot affect consumers, for example those which exclude liability for business losses, or losses to business customers.



You might want to read the rest/discuss it on the other thread, as it's more general that just KNCMINER, though it specifically applies here too.
Pages: « 1 ... 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 [347] 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 ... 2137 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!