NewLiberty
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Gresham's Lawyer
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February 04, 2015, 05:42:43 PM |
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What is heartbreaking to read in this history, is instead of learning from their mistakes and return to a decentralized and market based system that worked, FDR doubled down and created regulations in the place of market forces and banned individual ownership of money, and he was cheered for it. This is the moment America choose security over freedom and when the experiment failed IMHO.
"If a problem seems intractable, enlarge it" This is a commonplace government solution method, and it is often how we get bigger governments. The point to this long winded post is paper backed gold can (and did) work, it's just that it requires a decentralized system that can withstand individual failures and uses market forces to keep honesty. Sound familiar?
More recently, the Liberty Dollar. A gold and silver backed ledger using warehouse receipts, audited monthly. All the audits were perfect and showed zero leverage. The US federal government could not believe that someone would actually do this (because they don't) and so accused it of fraud and counterfeiting and conspiracy. As it turned out there wasn't any fraud, and after fighting the case for the last 6 years, the government is finally returning the gold and silver. |
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justusranvier
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February 04, 2015, 07:06:40 PM |
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NotHatinJustTrollin
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★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
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February 04, 2015, 07:13:46 PM |
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cryptocurrencies are pump&dumps, but bitcoin is the worst because it is making the biggest damage compared to their little peers  |
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LewiesMan
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February 04, 2015, 07:14:50 PM |
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Bitcoin rules them all. No point in dogecoin or litecoin smh |
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cypherdoc (OP)
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February 04, 2015, 07:26:22 PM |
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cryptocurrencies are pump&dumps, but bitcoin is the worst because it is making the biggest damage compared to their little peers Bitcoin is already changing everything. look at the fiat currency mkts. shambles. |
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rocks
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February 04, 2015, 07:34:58 PM |
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...
Yes Bitcoin provides a superior SoV function, but it has a superior Payment-Function to fiat and that is what will slowly win over individuals. Essentially Bitcoin provides all the benefits of fiat ledger money with the benefits of direct control/interaction (no middlemen), this combined with personal computing creates a vastly superior Payment-Function, which is what will drive adoption.
...
Bitcoin has a superior payment function *right now*. In theory, there's nothing preventing a cheap, global, fiat payment system except rent-seeking and politics. Granted those are strong forces, but in the face of enough competitive pressure from Bitcoin, the legacy system will be spurred to improve. That may already be happening as a direct result of Bitcoin, if you read between the lines of the Fed's recent payment-system-improvement paper. So I think we need to expect that the legacy payment system is going to get a lot better quickly. Bitcoin will still have many broader payment-sys advantages (eg, no international friction, immunity to capital controls, etc), but the day-to-day "save 3% on CCs", or "don't wait 3 days for an EFT" arguments are going to be moot at some point in the not too distant future. Best to be conscious of that now in order to focus efforts where BTC has the longrun advantage. Good points, fully agree. The challenge for the FED though is even if they fully see Bitcoin for the threat it is and take an "all hands on deck" approach to completely revamp the current dollar system to better compete with Bitcoin, what will hinder them are the mountains of regulations they and their banking partners have created (ironically to entrench their position). Sure the FED could create a Bitcoin style direct access for the dollar, but will anybody be able to directly access it? Or will the next changetip be required to go through mountains of regulatory approval requiring millions in startup funding that does not go directly to product development? The other challenge for the FED is cross boarder transactions, which are critical in our multi-national world today. The FED can only create a US centric dollar, while Bitcoin is global. Humanity wants a single unit of money. The FED can only address this by assuming the dollar is the global unit of account, which it is today but many countries want off. What Bitcoin has going for it is that it is censorship resistant and governments know they cannot control it. If it was in any possible to control Bitcoin the US government would have already shut it down the same as other attempts such as the Liberty Dollar. Your point though is Bitcoin will start to see real competition, which is a good thing. That competition is why I think Bitcoin needs the ability to improve functionality over time through market based approaches (not centralized developers). This is why I think some form of SCs could be useful (if properly/carefully implemented, not Blockstream's approach), a good version of SCs could enable Bitcoin to extend it's functionality in a market based fashion, and compete with an aggressive FED. I've come around somewhat to Adrian's and cypherdoc's view though that the current Blockstream approach is at best not fully understood and more likely a threat to bitcoin. |
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rocks
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February 04, 2015, 07:41:30 PM |
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What is heartbreaking to read in this history, is instead of learning from their mistakes and return to a decentralized and market based system that worked, FDR doubled down and created regulations in the place of market forces and banned individual ownership of money, and he was cheered for it. This is the moment America choose security over freedom and when the experiment failed IMHO.
"If a problem seems intractable, enlarge it" This is a commonplace government solution method, and it is often how we get bigger governments. The point to this long winded post is paper backed gold can (and did) work, it's just that it requires a decentralized system that can withstand individual failures and uses market forces to keep honesty. Sound familiar?
More recently, the Liberty Dollar. A gold and silver backed ledger using warehouse receipts, audited monthly. All the audits were perfect and showed zero leverage. The US federal government could not believe that someone would actually do this (because they don't) and so accused it of fraud and counterfeiting and conspiracy. As it turned out there wasn't any fraud, and after fighting the case for the last 6 years, the government is finally returning the gold and silver. Isn't there a saying along the lines of to a thief everyone looks like a criminal? Haven't followed the Liberty Dollar case closely. Were they convicted of anything? If not, are the courts going to let them operate again, or return their property but still ban them from operating "just because"? "If a problem seems intractable, enlarge it"
It was also the approach used in 2008 to a debt problem, create 100% more debt to fix it despite the fact the private market clearly wanted no more. |
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cypherdoc (OP)
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February 04, 2015, 08:00:11 PM |
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Finex bouncing
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rocks
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February 04, 2015, 08:02:27 PM |
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justusranvier
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February 04, 2015, 08:07:56 PM |
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brg444
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February 04, 2015, 08:32:05 PM |
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"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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cypherdoc (OP)
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February 04, 2015, 08:50:15 PM |
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rocks
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February 04, 2015, 09:33:48 PM |
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It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors... |
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Chalkbot
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February 04, 2015, 09:39:21 PM |
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It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors... Let's not forget NASCAR probably gets some viewers WAY out of their usual demographic. See the Dogecar madness for reference. |
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brg444
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February 04, 2015, 09:56:37 PM |
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It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors... And I care even less about a few hundred small independent businesses dumping BTC for fiat. |
"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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rocks
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February 04, 2015, 11:23:52 PM |
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It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors... And I care even less about a few hundred small independent businesses dumping BTC for fiat. Guess I don't see that as a pathway to BTC dumping, I see this type of adoption as increasing the velocity of Bitcoin. Increased velocity in turn increases the economic value of held bitcoins. A hundred thousand bitcoiners acting as Smaug lording over their BTC in cold storage will never increase it's value. I spend my BTC under a buy-and-replace mode, I'm sure some of that translates into increased holdings by others (both overstock and newegg keep some for example). Bitpay's customers are merchant businesses, their advertising is designed to get more merchants to offer bitcoin as a payment option. This is great advertising for Bitcoin because each converted merchant becomes a Bitcoin promoter themselves by offering bitcoin as a payment option. |
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rocks
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February 04, 2015, 11:36:53 PM |
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Updated draft on Benny's BitLicense http://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/regulations/revised_vc_regulation.pdfSection 200.10 Material change to business
(a) Each Licensee must obtain the superintendent’s prior written approval for any plan or proposal to introduce or offer a new product, service, or activity, or to make a material change to an existing product, service, or activity, involving New York or New York Residents.
(b) A “material change” may occur where:
(1) a change is proposed to an existing product, service, or activity that may cause such product, service, or activity to be materially different from that previously listed on the application for licensing by the superintendent;
(2) the proposed change may raise a legal or regulatory issue about the permissibility of the product, service, or activity; or
(3) the proposed change may raise safety and soundness or operational concerns.
(c) The Licensee shall submit a written plan describing the proposed new product, service, or activity, or the proposed material change, including a detailed description of the business operations, compliance policies, and the impact on the overall business of the Licensee, as well as such other information as requested by the superintendent. If a Licensee has any questions about the materiality of any proposed change, the Licensee may seek clarification from the Department prior to making that change
"May raise safety and soundness or operational concerns", this captures everything. I heard that when the movie industry first started, one of the main reasons it left NY and the east coast in general to setup camp in an empty desert in CA, was due to regulatory burdens. CA was still the wild west in the very early 1900s. History repeating itself |
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brg444
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February 04, 2015, 11:42:04 PM |
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It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors... And I care even less about a few hundred small independent businesses dumping BTC for fiat. Guess I don't see that as a pathway to BTC dumping, I see this type of adoption as increasing the velocity of Bitcoin. Increased velocity in turn increases the economic value of held bitcoins. A hundred thousand bitcoiners acting as Smaug lording over their BTC in cold storage will never increase it's value. I spend my BTC under a buy-and-replace mode, I'm sure some of that translates into increased holdings by others (both overstock and newegg keep some for example). Bitpay's customers are merchant businesses, their advertising is designed to get more merchants to offer bitcoin as a payment option. This is great advertising for Bitcoin because each converted merchant becomes a Bitcoin promoter themselves by offering bitcoin as a payment option. "See how awesome Bitcoin is, we'll help you get rid of them right here!" The "buy-and-replace" is not really something everyone can afford. "Anytime BTC is transfered to recipient not interested in holding our objectives are being diminished" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAnBm0WweDw |
"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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smooth
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February 04, 2015, 11:43:18 PM |
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"Anytime BTC is transfered to recipient not interested in holding our objectives are being diminished"
Sounds like nonsense. If the recipient doesn't hold then he transfers to someone who does. |
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rocks
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February 04, 2015, 11:51:33 PM |
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The "buy-and-replace" is not really something everyone can afford.
Sorry brg, but I don't get this. If someone wants to buy something for $50 on website A, they can: 1) Pay $50 directly, or 2) Pay $50 worth of held BTC, then purchase $50 of BTC at the same moment. The results are exactly the same in both cases, the person pays $50 and ends up with the exact same amount of BTC. "buy-and-replace" is a wash and perfectly affordable by anyone. Again, I don't get this. Take the 1) and 2) example above. In both cases the held BTC by the original purchaser are identical. There is an additional chance that some BTC on the merchant side is held. This means that the action of #2 increases BTC ownership, while the action of #1 does not. |
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